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RE: [spoilers] Harry and Ruth: Back With A Vengeance? - Nitrus - 20-09-2011 02:28 PM
Time for my annual weighing in.
I actually liked Harry & Ruth in episode 1, they seemed more like really close old friends who care a lot about each other rather than two people on the cusp of a romantic relationship. That was nice.
RE: [spoilers] Harry and Ruth: Back With A Vengeance? - A Cousin - 20-09-2011 03:49 PM
(20-09-2011 02:28 PM)Nitrus Wrote: Time for my annual weighing in.
I actually liked Harry & Ruth in episode 1, they seemed more like really close old friends who care a lot about each other rather than two people on the cusp of a romantic relationship. That was nice.
Who are you and what have you done with Nitrus!?!
Joking aside, I agree. I have no need for any further explanation of their synchronicity in 10.1. I really liked that they just did without all the angst and baggage. Are they schtupping each other? Immaterial.
Edited to add:
I too did not find Harry's explanation of the board as a denial of his feelings for her, only as a defense of his decisions as regards Albany, e.g. what was more important - a political deterrent that didn't work or the service's best analyst? It's a no brainer. The look back to her helped. Good actor instinct and direction that.
I don't think that Ruth's "We've had worse" is necessarily evidence of contact during his gardening leave. I think she is saying that they have had really bad "nights out" on operations. It's an acknowledgement of their considerable past together. Not with each other personally.
I thought that Harry's comment about them fitting into the glamour of the reception was sardonic, not a back handed compliment to Ruth. He was aligning them as outsiders together. And maybe even telling her that the glamour of it is only how it appears. She got the joke.
From a structural POV, I think the writers are setting us up for a fall.
RE: [spoilers] Harry and Ruth: Back With A Vengeance? - beatrice4ruth - 20-09-2011 06:03 PM
I am still blown away by the last shot of Harry when he looked at Ruth with so much sorrow and fear of losing her after admitting his guilty secret. It reminds me of the shot when he looked at Ruth with the same dread of losing her after the shooting of George.
And PF is supposed to get better and better by the end of series 10. I really do not how much better he could get.
RE: [spoilers] Harry and Ruth: Back With A Vengeance? - Nitrus - 20-09-2011 06:16 PM
(20-09-2011 06:03 PM)beatrice4ruth Wrote: I am still blown away by the last shot of Harry when he looked at Ruth with so much sorrow and fear of losing her after admitting his guilty secret. It reminds me of the shot when he looked at Ruth with the same dread of losing her after the shooting of George.
You saw sorrow and fear of losing Ruth? Wow, I really didn't see it like that at all.
What I saw was a Father coming to terms with seeing his son for the first time in god knows how long and the worried look suggested fear of the unknown situation Harry found himself in.
That look was not for Ruth in my opinion.
EDIT: And to suggest he felt guilty for having a child with another woman before even knowing Ruth is ridiculous to me. Yes, he didn't tell her about it, but he should not be feeling guilty about that. For me, he kept Sasha a secret to protect an asset which he has done in the past. Ruth doesn't have to be privy to every detail of his life before her.
RE: [spoilers] Harry and Ruth: Back With A Vengeance? - beatrice4ruth - 20-09-2011 07:15 PM
(20-09-2011 06:16 PM)Nitrus Wrote:(20-09-2011 06:03 PM)beatrice4ruth Wrote: I am still blown away by the last shot of Harry when he looked at Ruth with so much sorrow and fear of losing her after admitting his guilty secret. It reminds me of the shot when he looked at Ruth with the same dread of losing her after the shooting of George.
You saw sorrow and fear of losing Ruth? Wow, I really didn't see it like that at all.
What I saw was a Father coming to terms with seeing his son for the first time in god knows how long and the worried look suggested fear of the unknown situation Harry found himself in.
That look was not for Ruth in my opinion.
EDIT: And to suggest he felt guilty for having a child with another woman before even knowing Ruth is ridiculous to me. Yes, he didn't tell her about it, but he should not be feeling guilty about that. For me, he kept Sasha a secret to protect an asset which he has done in the past. Ruth doesn't have to be privy to every detail of his life before her.
I am so pleased that we do not see things the same way. As most women, Ruth would not want to know every detail of the life of their loved one/s.
I still believe that Harry felt a mixture of guilt for Sascha, who might not even be his son, and of fear of losing Ruth. Ruth would not be bothered by Harry's sentimental past; after all she was a kid during the Cold War.
Harry knew that Ruth might no longer support him if she thought that he had endangered the security of the realm through his liaison and a possible intelligence leak. I am convinced that there is more to Harry's secret than an illegitimate child. That's why Harry felt so much anguish.
By the way, when was the last time Harry saw his legitimate English children?
Thank you, PF and NW, for your incredible acting skills and for making us forget that Spooks is only a show.
RE: [spoilers] Harry and Ruth: Back With A Vengeance? - Nitrus - 20-09-2011 07:19 PM
(20-09-2011 07:15 PM)beatrice4ruth Wrote: I still believe that Harry felt a mixture of guilt for Sascha, who might not even be his son, and of fear of losing Ruth. Ruth would not be bothered by Harry's sentimental past; after all she was a kid during the Cold War.
Harry knew that Ruth might no longer support him if she thought that he had endangered the security of the realm through his liaison and a possible intelligence leak. I am convinced that there is more to Harry's secret than an illegitimate child. That's why Harry felt so much anguish.
I refuse to believe that Harry's first thought during this was 'Oh no, what will Ruth say?' or 'What if I lose Ruth?'. He is not that selfish and it's not in his character to be so one track minded. His world does not revolve around Ruth and this situation he's in is so much more than an HR storyline.
RE: [spoilers] Harry and Ruth: Back With A Vengeance? - Tea Lady - 20-09-2011 09:15 PM
I'm sure Harry does feel guilty about Sasha, that's a given. I took Harry being upset at the end, as it was also a given that his son, Sasha, was going to be hurt now. There was no way of keeping him out of it. He would find out about who his real father is (this is sounding like the script to Empire Strikes Back
) By burning Elena and getting the US to do the same, he protected them from all sides for over 30 years. He sacrificed his love and child for the State once again. I therefore do not believe he felt guilty towards Ruth. He does need Ruth to understand this though. Harry has no one else.
I do not see Ruth holding this against Harry at all. If there is more to the story though, then maybe. That's for future episodes. But in the meantime, the fact he slept with a woman, fell in love, and had a child, is not unsual and apart from the obvious breach of protocols, it isn't something I think Harry needs to be ashamed of, hence telling Ruth.
RE: [spoilers] Harry and Ruth: Back With A Vengeance? - beatrice4ruth - 20-09-2011 09:52 PM
and Ruth understands that too. After all, she might have had a child and given it away for adoption. We really do not know the whole truth about our loved ones. Personal secrets are often buried very deep. I am sure that she had guessed the truth about Elena and Sascha before Harry told her.
Is it a given that Sascha is Harry's son? I suppose as long as Harry believes it, he feels guilty. We assume that Elena is an innocent party and Harry had to protect her over the years. This plot is hard for me to swallow, but you might be right. As you know, I suspect Elena is not what she pretends to be. We will have to wait for the next episodes to see what is really going on.
I am sure that Harry was upset because of Sascha. I still think that at the end Harry teared up when he saw the pain in Ruth's eyes. She lost Nico, who was like a son to her. Harry knows that it is a painful topic for her. One can only feel sorry for Harry who feels guilty not only about his English children but also about Sascha.
RE: [spoilers] Harry and Ruth: Back With A Vengeance? - Nitrus - 20-09-2011 10:48 PM
Do you really suspect that Elena is not all she seems or do you just want her to be not all she seems so HR are still united against the world?
RE: [spoilers] Harry and Ruth: Back With A Vengeance? - beatrice4ruth - 21-09-2011 12:26 AM
Please do not assume when you see my name that I am automatically going to defend H/R.
As I said in my previous posts, I do not believe that Elena is who she pretends to be because she lived in East Berlin as a Russian. In East Germany the population, whether German or foreigners, was closely tracked by the Stasi. To me it's incredible that nobody noticed that a British citizen was visiting a Russian or even a East German woman. Neighbors, parents, children, teachers, students, co-workers and so forth were monitoring and denouncing each other to the Stasi. The Stasi followed its citizens and any foreigner (me included).
I just watched 10.1 and noticed that the flashback of Elena, young Sascha and Harry took place in the compound of a fenced-off building, suspiciously looking like an embassy. You see young Sascha running through the gates of the embassy to join his mother. It must have been the British Embassy in East Berlin. To me it seems impossible that the Soviet or German authorities did not know about Elena and Harry. The HS made also a remark to Harry "I know that you and Gavrik were intertwined. Anything I should know?". Obviously the British government knew about the liaison.
East Germany and the Soviet Union were close allies during the Cold War. There might have been a reason why Elena was in East Berlin. I assume it was in East Berlin. I do not think she could have lived in West Berlin as a Russian. She might have been an innocent young woman when Harry and Jim Coates recruited her. The KGB was very powerful and I cannot believe that they did not know what Elena and Harry were up to. The KGB must have threatened her and turned her into a double agent.
I am even more suspicious of Elena because she married a high-ranking KGB officer and spouses were vetted. Even if Harry had stopped using her as an agent, the KGB would never have left her go during her marriage to Ilya. To me Ilya is even more suspicious because he became a millionaire when the Soviet Union collapsed. I cannot believe he did not know about his wife's past.
I am done with my historical analysis.
I know it's Spooks we are talking about and not a Le Carre movie. They have the right to take liberties with the historical facts for drama purpose. I accept that and will try to keep an open mind toward Elena.
Frankly, I would not have care one iota about Harry and Ruth if they had not been portrayed so powerfully and poignantly by PF and NW. Their story would have been no more no less interesting than that of Zoe, Tom, Danny and the rest of the agents.
I am not going to talk about that subject till the end of 10.6 where we hope we will find out the truth.