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RE: [spoilers] Harry and Ruth: Back With A Vengeance? - xRuthx - 21-09-2011 12:45 AM
I thought that it was like Ruth and Harry were already married this episode...not sure how to explain what I mean but kind of like a fruitition of "we couldn't be more together than we are right now" except without the angst.
I liked it. It was a nice change.
RE: [spoilers] Harry and Ruth: Back With A Vengeance? - loladom - 21-09-2011 04:39 AM
(20-09-2011 09:15 PM)Tea Lady Wrote: I'm sure Harry does feel guilty about Sasha, that's a given. I took Harry being upset at the end, as it was also a given that his son, Sasha, was going to be hurt now. There was no way of keeping him out of it. He would find out about who his real father is (this is sounding like the script to Empire Strikes Back)
By burning Elena and getting the US to do the same, he protected them from all sides for over 30 years. He sacrificed his love and child for the State once again. I therefore do not believe he felt guilty towards Ruth. He does need Ruth to understand this though. Harry has no one else.
I do not see Ruth holding this against Harry at all. If there is more to the story though, then maybe. That's for future episodes. But in the meantime, the fact he slept with a woman, fell in love, and had a child, is not unsual and apart from the obvious breach of protocols, it isn't something I think Harry needs to be ashamed of, hence telling Ruth.
Agreed, this is how I see it.
I saw pain in Harry's confession. The pain of as you say not knowing his son, losing someone he loved and the steps he took to protect them. Perhaps a little fear over their fate if this becomes known and generally his reaction to having both of them arrive in his life after so long.
At no point did I see guilt towards Ruth. He has nothing to be guilty about in terms of Ruth. I saw the pain of his personal sacrifice. And if we think about how hard he's always been on his agents for getting involved with other foreign agents, perhaps that is about trying to prevent the heartache which we are now led to believe he suffered.
This does not blemish Harry for me at all. It just highlights the personal costs he's racked up in service.
As to his infidelity on his wife, well IMO he married young before he joined the service when neither of them knew the requirements. Perhaps his wife couldn't handle his time away from home and they became distant. It happens. Harry's affairs may have due to the fact his marriage had already broken down in all but name in a time when divorce was still relatively rare and certainly not acceptable. As an MI6 field agent, he's living on the edge and in such circumstances, love gets careless. I'm not saying it's exemplary behaviour, but it is understandable. And it makes Harry all the more human as a character.
RE: [spoilers] Harry and Ruth: Back With A Vengeance? - Forever Secret - 21-09-2011 10:52 AM
I agree with you both TL and loladom about Sasha, but have to add I think Harry does feel a degree of guilt towards Ruth, perhaps because he's kept it a secret for so long,
I don't think the revelation really damaged Harry's character... we all know he's got a past, his is just more complicated now
Admitting to someone your in love with that you had a son with a Russian spy is exactly an easy thing to do. Ruth though doesn't seem to upset by the revelation, I'd think she's more worried of the consequences it could bring
Harry seemed very emotional over admitting it to her, but Ruth really is Harry has right now, the only one he can turn to and the only one who he trusts enough to talk to about it.
Ruth said in 10.2 trailer "You're totally compromised with the Gavriks" and in a way, Ruth is also compromised because of what she knows about Sasha. By telling her in 10.1 Harry has automatically put Ruth in more danger
Just my thoughts
RE: [spoilers] Harry and Ruth: Back With A Vengeance? - beatrice4ruth - 21-09-2011 01:26 PM
I agree that Harry has put Ruth in danger because of his confession.
And I still do not understand why Harry thinks his Russian family is a secret that the Russian and British do not know about? It does not make sense to me. He did not reach the rank of Head of Section in being naive. He knows all the tricks of the trade and how the Russian intelligence works. To me, it is either a hole in the plot or a smokescreen from Harry (hope not).
RE: [spoilers] Harry and Ruth: Back With A Vengeance? - beatrice4ruth - 21-09-2011 07:27 PM
Perhaps Harry is not such a great spy after all. Why do the Russians in that Moscow meeting have seemingly thick files on Sascha, Harry and Elena according to the shot in episode 1? They must know about Harry's Russian family. There is no reason for Harry's file to be included with the files of Sascha and Elena. There was a photo of Harry on that file and not that of Jim Coaver. It seems to me it's a clue. I know I am partial to the idea that the Russians know all about Harry's sentimental past. It is possible that there is another reason why the Russians in that meeting have a file on Harry.
RE: [spoilers] Harry and Ruth: Back With A Vengeance? - Silktie - 22-09-2011 01:04 AM
(21-09-2011 01:26 PM)beatrice4ruth Wrote: I agree that Harry has put Ruth in danger because of his confession.
And I still do not understand why Harry thinks his Russian family is a secret that the Russian and British do not know about? It does not make sense to me. He did not reach the rank of Head of Section in being naive. He knows all the tricks of the trade and how the Russian intelligence works. To me, it is either a hole in the plot or a smokescreen from Harry (hope not).
Or perhaps he just has faith in his own abilities? I think in this instance we just have to go with the Spooks canon that Harry was the bestest spy ever and thus good enough to hide knowledge of his connection to Elena and Sasha from both his own side and the Russians.
I don't see how telling Ruth that Sasha is his son puts Ruth in more danger than she already was as part of the intelligence team working on this case. If he tells the rest of the team, will they also be in more danger than they already are? This only holds true if the enemy knows that Harry told her. And since Harry and Ruth are the only people in the world that know that he told her, how will the enemy find out?
RE: [spoilers] Harry and Ruth: Back With A Vengeance? - Silktie - 22-09-2011 04:27 PM
It amuses me that the man who is so hopeless with Ruth managed to persuade not one, but TWO strong, beautiful and intelligent women to sleep with him back in the day.
What went wrong, Harry old boy? Lost that mojo in the intervening years?
Or maybe the women did the seducing more than Harry.
RE: [spoilers] Harry and Ruth: Back With A Vengeance? - loladom - 22-09-2011 04:45 PM
(22-09-2011 04:27 PM)Silktie Wrote: It amuses me that the man who is so hopeless with Ruth managed to persuade not one, but TWO strong, beautiful and intelligent women to sleep with him back in the day.
What went wrong, Harry old boy? Lost that mojo in the intervening years?
Or maybe the women did the seducing more than Harry.
I think Jane Pearce was beautiful too, wasn't she?Clearly the women did all the running
Although Juliet did say 'when you (Harry) were trying to seduce me' Maybe Juliet beat his mojo to a pulp - in the words of Adam 'Run for cover ye fainthearted (liberals)'
Perhaps the sadness of Elena sapped his mojo?????? Maybe that's when he became a monk having decided to be er more *careful*
Let's face it, Ruth hasn't exactly made it easy for him, Ruth is very different from these women. She also keeps on rejecting him/ retreating into her corner whenever he makes the slightest move. Which is highly understandable given the fact he's her boss.
As a side note, where in the timeline is Juliet likely to have been? I'd say before Elena. I think their affair was more casual than Elena. That's it lol, it's all Elena's fault. She broke his heart and took his mojo back to Russia!
RE: [spoilers] Harry and Ruth: Back With A Vengeance? - beatrice4ruth - 22-09-2011 05:14 PM
I suppose that at 28 years old, when the affair with Elena must have started, you are allowed to be randy and cocky. 30 years later it might be a different matter
. I know that you are going to howl at that true statement! I am happy to know that I am not the only one who understands why Ruth did not want to get too much involved with Harry before 5.5. She was a young desk officer and to go out with the boss would have been viewed as a "career move".
Ruth has changed a lot and is more or less his equal now. How do you know that Elena broke his heart? I thought it was Ruth's role to break Harry's heart! We were always told that Ruth was the love of Harry's life. If Harry had managed to sneak Elena out to the West, do you think that he would have divorced poor Jane (how many times did Harry cheat on her) and married Elena? If so, he would have had to leave the intelligence services and go into the private industry. Even in the early 80s the Soviet Union was considered a staunch enemy.
RE: [spoilers] Harry and Ruth: Back With A Vengeance? - loladom - 22-09-2011 06:41 PM
(22-09-2011 05:14 PM)beatrice4ruth Wrote: How do you know that Elena broke his heart? I thought it was Ruth's role to break Harry's heart! We were always told that Ruth was the love of Harry's life. If Harry had managed to sneak Elena out to the West, do you think that he would have divorced poor Jane (how many times did Harry cheat on her) and married Elena? If so, he would have had to leave the intelligence services and go into the private industry. Even in the early 80s the Soviet Union was considered a staunch enemy.
I was being ironic - hence the wink.
I'd say Silktie was lightening the mood. Many fans would like to see H&R together but allow ourselves the odd joke here and there on these forums. British humour and all.
