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+--- Forum: Series 10 (/forum-30.html)
+--- Thread: Series 10 - Episode 6 Discussion (/thread-1975.html)
RE: Series 10 - Episode 6 Discussion - Gillymac - 26-10-2011 07:18 PM
(26-10-2011 06:57 PM)A Cousin Wrote: Speaking of Americans, I was brave enough to rewatch last night got a giggle out of the CIA in their big, black Tahoes and Hummers plowing through the woods. Dumb a** cars that they are.(*Sssshhhhh...if we paint them black, you caaaaan't see meeee!*)
And the CIA agent with the wrist comm was totally getting off on it. He was having a blast!
Apropos of nothing, other than A Cousin might get a kick out of it....
Years ago, when Clinton came to Belfast, he was invited to switch on the Xmas lights at City Hall (I know, I know *cringe*). Anyway, preparations for this started in earnest at the start of November. Manhole covers welded shut etc. etc. to prevent a terrorist attack. (you know we'll bomb anything that moves, right?
)Anyhoo... around the same time we got a new big issue seller at the bottom of the escalator to our building. Not only was he the cleanest homeless dude we'd ever seen, he was about 6'6", with a Marine issue haircut and a beautiful, brand new transparent rubber ear-bud with a lovely curly cord that went down the back of his shirt....
Long story short, we let him sit out in the cold for a week, then busted him out on Friday night and took him to the pub. Think he appreciated it. He got us a private audience with POTUS anyway
And..... back to series 10.....
RE: Series 10 - Episode 6 Discussion - Gazelle - 26-10-2011 07:57 PM
(25-10-2011 10:20 PM)beatrice4ruth Wrote:(25-10-2011 09:21 PM)DogSoSmall Wrote: I have tried to read everyone's comments and really take in what is being said about how appropriate and beautiful the ending was. I want to agree, because clearly to have found this perfect would be a much more pleasant experience. I forced myself to watch the repeat last night, constantly reminding myself how this was, apparently, the only possible way for Spooks to end. I revelled in everyone's incredible acting. I laughed at the funny lines. I took in the beauty of the memorial wall. I forced my way through the poignancy of Harry's last scene.
I don't get it. I will never get it.
I have been watching Spooks since it first began 10 years ago. I have always enjoyed it, in spite of the derision of family members who know a bit about the security services. I have loved many of the characters (particularly Zaf and Adam) and have been sad when they died, but have always acknowledged that it has been in the "Spooks tradition" and it has been gripping, heroic and exciting as well as awful. I've always been left with the sort of "wow" feeling that most people seem to be achieving now. I do not watch Spooks just for Harry and Ruth, and I don't like the dismissive way people are categorised as the H/R brigade. I have always enjoyed both characters as individuals and because they are played by such exceptional actors. It is the actors and the writers who introduced any sort of relationship element and have been leading us along this path. Those who are most immersed in the show have followed, and cared just like they wanted us to. Everyone loves Harry and wants him to be happy, and it is the writers and the actors who have convinced us that he believes he would be happy with Ruth. That is why we wanted that for him. The show is not all about Harry and Ruth, but it is the writers who put all the emphasis on Harry during this last series. Of course, they wanted to make the most of Peter Firth's skills and this series is a gem in that respect, but it is the writers who created that emphasis and the viewers would have to be asleep not to notice.
Ruth's death was completely different from any of the other deaths on the show. It was unbearably and irredeemably sad. The writers have spent the last two series showing us what little appetite Harry had for his job any more. They concentrated our minds on the sacrifices he has made for his country and Peter Firth made us care. And how do they repay us for obliging them and caring? They put him back in that job he has grown to detest because they have taken away any other brighter hope for him, and that is the final image we are left with.
And, of course it's not real. I am finding it very irritating, seeing that smugly pointed out as if some do not appreciate the fact. Surely the pinnacle of achievement for drama-makers is to create something which becomes real in the imaginations of the viewers. I'm sure they would not want to the belittle those viewers when they do achieve it. And frankly I think it is pretty rich for anyone who has registered on a fan forum (not to mention people who are obsessed enough to start up a forum) to mock others who take it seriously.
It is bunkum to say this is the only way the series could have ended. A happy ending would have been soap opera? Does anyone watch soaps? I don't, largely because you can bet that the second a character is happy, death, betrayal and misery are close behind. In that respect, this last episode was pure gold soap. It was the acting skills of PF and NW that saved it. Just as their skill would have delivered an equally plausible end with them together. And I'd put money on it that if that is what had happened, being the consummate professionals that they are, they would now be giving interviews saying how fitting and deserved that kind of ending was. I didn't want to see roses round the door. Just an acknowledgment, however subtle, that sometimes people can find their way to each other, no matter the obstacles.
So now I am sad. And I want the writers to know that I am sad. For 9 series and five and 55/60ths of an episode I thought Spooks was the best thing I had ever seen on television. Now I just hope I wake up tomorrow and have forgotten all about it.
And if you make a sarky comment about that, Nitrus, I swear to god I will hunt you down - Tom Quinn style!!!
Thank you for your wonderful remarks. I wish I could write so well.
You have summarized so well my feelings about the love of Harry and Ruth and the mockery that other fans, one person in particular, heap on us because we dare to cherish them.
It's so childish that we are not allowed to have a different opinion from other fans. Isn’t what a forum is about, to share different points of view and respect each other? It is even more galling when our posts are dismissed without being read properly. Why is so difficult to accept that H/R fans can also appreciate the spying tradecraft? I suppose that I will be again exiled! Big deal. As a teacher, I find it very funny that at my age I am being sent to the corner with a dunce hat.
Now let’s go back to the truly important stuff. Harry broke my heart during the death of Ruth, at the cottage, at the memorial and in his office with his black and white mourning tie. It was nearly unbearable to watch him, nearly more so than the actual death of Ruth. Britain is now supposed to be safe in the hands of a broken and reluctant Head of Section, who kidnapped a CIA deputy-director and nearly blew up a plane full of civilians. What will Harry do without the guidance of Ruth who was not only the love of his life but his moral compass?
Harry and Ruth deserved a happy understated ending. I can't get over the fact that they shared only three kisses in 9 years and for the third one Ruth had to be dead. It is so unrealistic and ridiculous.
I am truly sorry that Spooks has disappointed you after 10 years of faithful viewing. PF and NW have tried so hard to create a loving and perfectly-matched couple who should be envied by all and not mocked by some. The marvelous PF and NW must have felt somewhat betrayed by the short-sighted imagination and the tedious shock and awe formula of Kudos.
Apologies for quoting these 2 posts in full as it'll make my post very long, but to abbreviate them wouldn't do them justice. Both are really well written and sum up my feelings perfectly, thank you to both contributors for posting.
The lines that stand out for me are the following:
"Those who are most immersed in the show have followed, and cared just like they wanted us to."
"Ruth's death was completely different from any of the other deaths on the show. It was unbearably and irredeemably sad."
"Surely the pinnacle of achievement for drama-makers is to create something which becomes real in the imaginations of the viewers [so it is unfair to criticise fans when this happens]."
"It was the acting skills of PF and NW that saved it. Just as their skill would have delivered an equally plausible end with them together."
"[It would have been] Just an acknowledgment, however subtle, that sometimes people can find their way to each other, no matter the obstacles."
"Harry and Ruth deserved a happy understated ending."
I couldn't have put any of this better myself. Like you both I remain desperately sad that the writers/producers decided this was the way the show should end, it is however comforting to know we're not alone in feeling this.
(As well as reassuring to know we're all perfectly sane, intelligent and well-balanced individuals who's only crime is to have cared greatly about this drama and the fate of Harry and Ruth!)
Thank you again for sharing your thoughts.
RE: Series 10 - Episode 6 Discussion - texasfan - 26-10-2011 08:32 PM
I enjoyed the last episode. The ending was very sad. I wished we would have heard a poem. I will never allow myself to drawn into a series again. I need some grief counseling. Cheers.
RE: Series 10 - Episode 6 Discussion - Scarlet - 26-10-2011 09:17 PM
(26-10-2011 08:32 PM)texasfan Wrote: I enjoyed the last episode. The ending was very sad. I wished we would have heard a poem. I will never allow myself to drawn into a series again. I need some grief counseling. Cheers.
This why I wished Malcolm had made an appearance at the end. He could have quoted some apt poem and perhaps made us all feel better. I also meant to say but forget in the all the high emotion of the last few days that I would like to congratulate one other person on Spooks and that is the wonderful Paul Leonard Morgan for his beautiful music! I love Ruth's farewell theme and the minute it started playing on sunday, it got me. Beautiful piece of music. I also like the theme immediately after when Harry is going to the cottage and then later at the memorial. I hope some of his music for this series is released. Some of his past series music is on itunes but not everything unfortunately.
RE: Series 10 - Episode 6 Discussion - kmac82 - 26-10-2011 10:02 PM
Came across this post from a reader on Wylie's blog. Thought it was interesting...
Well! Peter Firth said it was a 6-act Greek tragedy and I’ll be diddly-dog-damned if they gave us a 6-act Greek tragedy! I don’t know if this was intentionally done by Kudos, but it is almost more amazing if it wasn’t. None the less, it came complete with a Medea (Elena), an Oedipus (Sasha), a Penelope (Ruth), a Greek Chorus (the threats -of-the-week as played out by Erin/Dimitri), a sage (Calum), and I am pretty sure even Gavrik and Towers have some sort of parallel I haven’t figured out yet, not to mention the hubris, pathos, hamartia and anagnorisis of the sublimely magnificent man himself, Sir Harry Pearce. Topped off with a great, big, silent scream of a catharsis for the characters and viewers... Now THAT’S theater!
Hope this person doesn't mind me posting it, but I thought it was a rather fascinating way to look at it the series as a whole!
Still doesn't alleviate the pain, though. I tried to watch the ending again last night, and couldn't. Harry's face when he goes to the cottage STILL makes me sick with heartache...
RE: Series 10 - Episode 6 Discussion - nimax1 - 26-10-2011 11:26 PM
(26-10-2011 06:23 PM)harrbd Wrote: Yes, why was Jim Coaver kidnapped and killed. I don't think he knew about Elena because he said to Harry that they would work together to figure it out.
I believe we are to make the connection that Elena had him kidnapped (and used her husband's bodyguards to do her dirty work) from Harry's clutches because she did not want the two of them to work on it together and "figure it out" which most likely they would have. Now how she found out that Harry had him is beyond me. Ruth told Towers. How'd that get to Elena. Who knows? Of course, maybe the bad guys were watching Coaver's kidnap by Harry and they followed them. And then they threw him out of the back of the van when they were followed to get away from Harry. A lot of put together but it is the only thing that makes sense to me.
RE: Series 10 - Episode 6 Discussion - beatrice4ruth - 26-10-2011 11:55 PM
To Gillymac:
First, I can't believe that the CIA was so obvious. No wonder that Spooks had a field day with them.
Secondly. To an older deluded fan there is no greater love than a love between two people who are not only intellectually and emotionally compatible but also sexually well-matched. Unfortunately, I am not a writer. I would like to refer you to the beautiful story Blood, Sand and Tears by Silktie. You will understand what I mean. It is a pity that Silktie did not write the last episode.
A kiss, just before Ruth's death, to acknowledge the love of Harry and Ruth was not asking too much. I personally have never expected a nude scene in the middle of the field (just joking), just an understated hint that Harry and Ruth are now together. I also think it is laughable not to show us a few kisses (preferably not on a dead Ruth) after the numerous love scenes (nude!!!) we had to endure with the younger Section D staff (Adam and more Adam - though the nude scene with the snakes was pretty cool; Lucas; Zoe; Ros; Dimitri come to mind). After that, it is not necessary to go on special websites. Just watch Spooks that gave us not only nude scenes but also cabaret scenes with bare breast call girls! Kudos is no prude when it comes to younger people. Why is Kudos so afraid of the physical expression of love between older actors?
Tea Lady - I like your humour.
Finally, Harry might be ready to go to work. Will he be fit to do his job after his poor decision making over the last two series? Ruth had tried to stear him away from bad decisions. It did not always work, to witness the kidnapping of Jim Coaver. She managed to convince him not to shoot the plane and to accept the treachery of Elena. As PF said in an s5 extra, Harry was looking for guidance when Ruth appeared. He will need guidance even more so now. Harry is only human. How can he not be deeply affected and burned out after what he had endured with Lucas, Elena, Sasha and Ruth?.
RE: Series 10 - Episode 6 Discussion - Betty - 27-10-2011 01:10 AM
There's definitely something very British about the theme of unfulfilled middle-age love: 84 Charing Cross Road, Remains of the Day, and another one I can't think of now. Oh yeah, Spooks! I'm from Alabama, where people eat deep-fried Snickers Bars. Self-denial is an alien concept to us. Could someone British please explain?
RE: Series 10 - Episode 6 Discussion - A Cousin - 27-10-2011 03:24 AM
(26-10-2011 10:02 PM)kmac82 Wrote: Came across this post from a reader on Wylie's blog. Thought it was interesting...
Well! Peter Firth said it was a 6-act Greek tragedy and I’ll be diddly-dog-damned if they gave us a 6-act Greek tragedy! I don’t know if this was intentionally done by Kudos, but it is almost more amazing if it wasn’t. None the less, it came complete with a Medea (Elena), an Oedipus (Sasha), a Penelope (Ruth), a Greek Chorus (the threats -of-the-week as played out by Erin/Dimitri), a sage (Calum), and I am pretty sure even Gavrik and Towers have some sort of parallel I haven’t figured out yet, not to mention the hubris, pathos, hamartia and anagnorisis of the sublimely magnificent man himself, Sir Harry Pearce. Topped off with a great, big, silent scream of a catharsis for the characters and viewers... Now THAT’S theater!
What kind of insufferable pedant would post such insensitive and over-intellectualized bullsh...!!!
(*rubs eyes and peers again at screen....*) Flippin' heck, that's ME!!!!
Uummm...
What kind of brillantly astute mind would post such a fascinating and provocative idea...
Just a little theory I have been kicking around. Although I am wondering if Ruth might have as much of the "Antigone" in her as "Penelope". There is a little discussion about it going on in the Harry thread. Please do join in. Whether you appreciate the "tragic" aspects of S10 or not, I do think that in this respect at least, they did what they said they were going to do.
RE: Series 10 - Episode 6 Discussion - Silktie - 27-10-2011 05:59 AM
(26-10-2011 09:53 AM)binkie Wrote: Things I didn't like so much:
- Should I be delighted that Tom's great escape has taken him only as far as contract killing?
These things are obviously in the eye of the beholder, but in my imagination Tom does not do this on a regular basis. In fact, he probably leads a very normal life. But Harry went to the best man he knew for the job, and that's Tom. And Tom agreed, because it was for Ruth. So to my mind it was a once-off job for Tom.
And I think the killing of that Russian dude, whose name I've forgotten, was not only revenge for Ruth's death. The whole thing happened because this man was hell-bent on scuppering the partnership between Russia and Britain, and he would surely have tried again. So killing him serves a dual purpose: securing the Russia/Britain deal and avenging Ruth.
(26-10-2011 06:57 PM)A Cousin Wrote: That said, in the moment, I thought she meant that Harry was too decent to fight Coaver any harder when he confronted Harry during the extraction. Harry also understood that Coaver was protecting his agents by blocking the extraction. The sacrificing of the many (agents) for the few (Elena/Sasha). Even then with Harry, it's all in the maths, I suppose.
Upon rewatching, I see that I got it wrong. Elena did not say Harry was too decent to go through with the extraction, but that he was decent because he burned her in the first place - possibly referring to the fact that he ended her 'career' as his asset to protect her and Sasha? I can see how that can be termed a decent thing to do. She then begged Harry to extract her so she could continue to try and turn him, and he was going to do it against orders, but Jim stopped him.
(26-10-2011 11:26 PM)nimax1 Wrote:(26-10-2011 06:23 PM)harrbd Wrote: Yes, why was Jim Coaver kidnapped and killed. I don't think he knew about Elena because he said to Harry that they would work together to figure it out.
I believe we are to make the connection that Elena had him kidnapped (and used her husband's bodyguards to do her dirty work) from Harry's clutches because she did not want the two of them to work on it together and "figure it out" which most likely they would have. Now how she found out that Harry had him is beyond me. Ruth told Towers. How'd that get to Elena. Who knows? Of course, maybe the bad guys were watching Coaver's kidnap by Harry and they followed them. And then they threw him out of the back of the van when they were followed to get away from Harry. A lot of put together but it is the only thing that makes sense to me.
The timing of Coaver's death makes me think it was done to get Harry in trouble with the CIA. Elena could have had Coaver killed as soon as she came to London, but she didn't, because she needed him to be the fall-guy in the 'fake Harry' saga. But as soon as Harry grabs Coaver, she realises he will eventually convince Harry of his innocence, and he is therefore no longer of use to her. So she can kill him and at the same time get Harry removed from the scene by the Americans.