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RE: [Spoilers] Sir Harry Pearce - JHyde - 25-11-2009 05:02 PM
Early on in this thread we talked about Kachimov and how that situation brought out the ruthless side of Harry, which we've more recently been discussing. I'd like to revisit that, as many loyal fans of Harry were alienated by that action. I think we can count ourselves as members of that group
so what do you guys think? Was he justified? Did it make you think less of Harry?
RE: [Spoilers] Sir Harry Pearce - Silktie - 25-11-2009 05:37 PM
This is a bit of a dilemma for me. Morally I know it should make me think less of him, but I don't, and I think these are the reasons why:
- They have established Harry's principled approach to the job extremely well up to that point, so that I accept that he had a very good reason to kill the Russian, i.e the man was a threat to national security. The problem with the above argument is that Harry really killed him for personal reasons; they had already neutralised him as a threat.
- However, and this is important to me, I like that Harry did it himself precisely because it was personal. He could've gotten someone else to do it, as he did in season 1 with the guy that killed Helen, but because it was personal, he did it himself.
- Before Harry and Ros goes off to meet the Russian, Jo basically tells them that it's not fair that he gets away with what he's done, so Harry also knows he needs to do it for the team, not only for himself.
- The guy was actually guilty and did deserve it.
RE: [Spoilers] Sir Harry Pearce - JHyde - 25-11-2009 05:52 PM
My argument is that it was a terrible thing to do, with several good reasons for doing so. It did make me pause - I did think a little less of him for it. But there have been other things over the course of the show that have also sat uncomfortably with me about Harry. Jez in Season 2 probably being the biggest example.
It was a very personal act of revenge, and I think Harry took some solace in performing it himself. Particularly given how much Adam meant as a leader to the team, and he'd been around for a long time, the morale issue of cutting the guy loose to the interrogators is a big one. And by not exacting revenge on Kachimov they would set a nasty precedent for outright attacks on their team. Remember that in the 8 months prior to Adam's death, the team had lost Zaf under harrowing circumstances, lost and regained Ros, Jo had come very close to death 3 times, not to mention being held captive, and Lucas had just returned from Moscow very much the worse for wear. Harry has genuine affection for Lucas, as we've already talked about on this thread. It may well have been the final thing that pushed him over the edge in acting against those who attack his team.
I do wonder whether he would have done so had Ruth been around. That niggled at me at the time, and season 8 has only made me wonder anew.
RE: [Spoilers] Sir Harry Pearce - almh - 25-11-2009 05:54 PM
Hmmm, she did always make him a more rational person. That's an interesting point to bring up JHyde.
RE: [Spoilers] Sir Harry Pearce - JHyde - 25-11-2009 06:07 PM
This is inevitably one of those conversations that will overlap a little with the Harry/Ruth thread. But especially in light of 8.2, it's a reasonable question to pose.
I do think that killing Kachimov, or murdering him (as he so bluntly admits to Ros in 7.3) is very revealing about him. He cares for these people in his care much more than he probably should. Think of all the times he's protested that you can't have friends in this job, and yet that's exactly how he describes Adam to Ros in 7.2. He loves Ruth, as we well know
, he threatened a coup for Zoe to get away, and he's exceeded what he should do for Jo on an occasion or two. We still don't know how that death will affect him.
RE: [Spoilers] Sir Harry Pearce - Beatriz - 25-11-2009 06:09 PM
(25-11-2009 05:52 PM)JHyde Wrote: My argument is that it was a terrible thing to do, with several good reasons for doing so.
For me, this sums up what I think about Harry's killing Katchimov. But I must admit it was cool watching Harry in action!
But just for the sake of seeing another side of Harry. This time he crossed the line.I'm not sure this would have happened if Ruth had been in the team... Probably yes, though as almh said he's more rational when she's around...
RE: [Spoilers] Sir Harry Pearce - almh - 25-11-2009 06:10 PM
He definitely takes loyalty to his team very seriously - another good trait guys
RE: [Spoilers] Sir Harry Pearce - JHyde - 25-11-2009 06:17 PM
Oh you know how much I love Harry! And I prefer it that there's no painting him as an outright hero, because there's no such thing, especially at his rank in the Security Services. I think the fact that Harry is a hero, and a good man in spite of his circumstances, rather than because of them, is the reason why we love him. Most of the time, it's his strength of values in the face of overwhelming opposition that makes him Harry. The fact that he's vulnerable, especially in the matter of team morale and the people in his charge, is ultimately something I put in his "pros" column. It means he's still fighting for something.
I suppose though that it's fair to say that he's *too* ruthless when he's Ruth-less.
RE: [Spoilers] Sir Harry Pearce - almh - 25-11-2009 06:19 PM
I think we all love Harry here!
But the best thing about him is that he isn't a perfect person As I'm sure I've repeated this hundreds of times on this thread!
RE: [Spoilers] Sir Harry Pearce - Silktie - 25-11-2009 06:37 PM
Good points made by all. I wanted to mention something to the effect that he might have handled it differently had Ruth been around, because I tend to think that might have been the case. However, I absolutely love that Harry is not just a one-dimensional hero, but that there is a dark side to him. It makes me appreciate the fact that he usually sticks to his guns ito his values all the more, as we know that he does have the potential to take the amoral approach. Also, if I had a job where I risked my life everyday to save everyone else, but know that they will never know that, I would like to have a boss that would ensure that my ultimate sacrifice, should I die, had not been in vain, and that he would ensure that justice was done. Maybe if the Russian had shown some remorse and been a little less smug about the whole thing, I would have been more troubled by what Harry did.