(02-11-2010 05:09 PM)Logsie Wrote:  I've been pondering this one as well. Do you suppose that the real Lucas North isn't actually dead. Did they check for a pulse after John strangled him? Maybe it's him on the roof with Harry?

EDIT: Just watched the trailer again and it's definitely "our" Lucas.

(02-11-2010 05:39 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  

(02-11-2010 05:09 PM)Logsie Wrote:  I've been pondering this one as well. Do you suppose that the real Lucas North isn't actually dead. Did they check for a pulse after John strangled him? Maybe it's him on the roof with Harry?

EDIT: Just watched the trailer again and it's definitely "our" Lucas.

I think the real Lucas North is dead. Another theory which I know has massive holes is that this is some sort of reverse SugarHorse thingy. During Lucas North's vetting, it was discovered that he was actually a Chinese agent who was going to join MI5 as a sleeper. John Bateman was already in Dakar working for MI6 doing undercover work for Vaughn who didn't know that John worked for MI6. John was ordered to befriend Lucas. Eventually John was ordered to kill Lucas and take his identity so the Chinese would still think they had an agent at MI5. Hence Vaughn saw John killing Lucas. John had to keep up the pretence and plant the bomb.

Harry knows all of this and that the Chinese are listening in to everything. The whole charade in the warehouse was for the Chinese benefit so the Chinese still think their agent is safe and has not been discovered.

(02-11-2010 09:21 PM)Caitlinhg Wrote:  One thing that was interesting to me was when Harry was debriefing Lucas and kept pressing him as to whether he really knew (or not) WHO, in the British Government or Intelligence Services may have been behind the British Embassy bombing in Dakkar, in 1995. He pressed this point a few times... so many times, in fact, it implied to me that Harry knows EXACTLY WHO was behind the bombing order and wanted to know if their cover was blown.

This made me think that Harry is fully aware of everything... even the "Albany file", which, like others here, I'm beginning to think is John/Lucas. Could John actually be a Jason Bourne-like, programmable, but genetically manipulated operative (Bourne was not)? John is a "weapon" like Bourne, so to speak, and the Chinese want him, the Albany file, for this reason? [The Chinese have stepped up their micro-biology and genetics research efforts, especially since 1989's Tianamen Square protests, btw] so it's not so far-fetched that they would be interested in this kind of genetic manipulation: Programmable human "weapons" [no disrespect to ancient martial arts and their practitioners meant, here].

It was in the late 1970's that humans had developed the ability to directly manipulate plant genes and proposals to begin human gene manipulation were put forth in the early 1980s. Somatic gene manipulation changes the genes in the cells in the body, other than the reproductive cells, so could John have "volunteered" to have undergone experimental somatic genetic manipulation at some point @ 1995, in his early 20's, to somehow make him more deadly but programmable, but only from Vaughn and/or Harry? Perhaps that's why Arkady and torturers in Russia never really penetrated Lucas/John's deepest psyche... it wasn't there anymore... just programming for MI-5?

Seems the Chinese know that Lucas North can deliver Albany, but, perhaps, haven't figured out that Lucas/John, IS Albany... otherwise... they would have picked him up by now, themselves.

Anyway... Vaughn could have been John's programmer [still does it until his dying breath, so that doesn't seem too far-fetched either], after some genetic manipulation was experimented on him, but does/did not know that "ALBANY" is the name given to the fully programmed human weapon, John/Lucas.

If John is a programmable "weapon" of sorts, the Albany file, itself, then it would make sense that Malcolm enacted diversionary protocols, when John asked him for the file, 'cause it would indicate that someone else [the Chinese] knew about it/him and were after it/him. It would also make sense as to why Harry is so protective, and, ultimately, in the end, so damned trusting of Lucas/John... 'cause he knows John is a killing machine, but he won't or can't "tell" the truth... he just follows his programming to survive to kill for MI-5, not survive because of any political or moral convictions.

I think "Albany", John/Lucas, is Harry's brainchild and he brought Vaughn in, long ago, to customize/program the "weapon", even though Vaughn may not have known what the "finished" product would be called: Albany. Like Bourne... John/Lucas has no genuine memory of any of it.

As far as Ruth's reactions this episode? I think, under the circumstances, she's acting like Harry does, when killing or vengeance seems necessary. Her assessment of her own behavior seems accurate and in compliance with their natures. Don't forget... Ros and Adam were the same way... Ros verbalizing it to Harry after Adam died. They all know how to feel all things, sometimes violently and with genuine emotion, however, they have mastered the ability to compartmentalize all of their actions, reactions, etc., to live, or, not, live, another day.

(02-11-2010 09:35 PM)Logsie Wrote:  

(02-11-2010 09:21 PM)Caitlinhg Wrote:  One thing that was interesting to me was when Harry was debriefing Lucas and kept pressing him as to whether he really knew (or not) WHO, in the British Government or Intelligence Services may have been behind the British Embassy bombing in Dakkar, in 1995. He pressed this point a few times... so many times, in fact, it implied to me that Harry knows EXACTLY WHO was behind the bombing order and wanted to know if their cover was blown.

This made me think that Harry is fully aware of everything... even the "Albany file", which, like others here, I'm beginning to think is John/Lucas. Could John actually be a Jason Bourne-like, programmable, but genetically manipulated operative (Bourne was not)? John is a "weapon" like Bourne, so to speak, and the Chinese want him, the Albany file, for this reason? [The Chinese have stepped up their micro-biology and genetics research efforts, especially since 1989's Tianamen Square protests, btw] so it's not so far-fetched that they would be interested in this kind of genetic manipulation: Programmable human "weapons" [no disrespect to ancient martial arts and their practitioners meant, here].

It was in the late 1970's that humans had developed the ability to directly manipulate plant genes and proposals to begin human gene manipulation were put forth in the early 1980s. Somatic gene manipulation changes the genes in the cells in the body, other than the reproductive cells, so could John have "volunteered" to have undergone experimental somatic genetic manipulation at some point @ 1995, in his early 20's, to somehow make him more deadly but programmable, but only from Vaughn and/or Harry? Perhaps that's why Arkady and torturers in Russia never really penetrated Lucas/John's deepest psyche... it wasn't there anymore... just programming for MI-5?

Seems the Chinese know that Lucas North can deliver Albany, but, perhaps, haven't figured out that Lucas/John, IS Albany... otherwise... they would have picked him up by now, themselves.

Anyway... Vaughn could have been John's programmer [still does it until his dying breath, so that doesn't seem too far-fetched either], after some genetic manipulation was experimented on him, but does/did not know that "ALBANY" is the name given to the fully programmed human weapon, John/Lucas.

If John is a programmable "weapon" of sorts, the Albany file, itself, then it would make sense that Malcolm enacted diversionary protocols, when John asked him for the file, 'cause it would indicate that someone else [the Chinese] knew about it/him and were after it/him. It would also make sense as to why Harry is so protective, and, ultimately, in the end, so damned trusting of Lucas/John... 'cause he knows John is a killing machine, but he won't or can't "tell" the truth... he just follows his programming to survive to kill for MI-5, not survive because of any political or moral convictions.

I think "Albany", John/Lucas, is Harry's brainchild and he brought Vaughn in, long ago, to customize/program the "weapon", even though Vaughn may not have known what the "finished" product would be called: Albany. Like Bourne... John/Lucas has no genuine memory of any of it.

As far as Ruth's reactions this episode? I think, under the circumstances, she's acting like Harry does, when killing or vengeance seems necessary. Her assessment of her own behavior seems accurate and in compliance with their natures. Don't forget... Ros and Adam were the same way... Ros verbalizing it to Harry after Adam died. They all know how to feel all things, sometimes violently and with genuine emotion, however, they have mastered the ability to compartmentalize all of their actions, reactions, etc., to live, or, not, live, another day.

Some very interesting ideas here regarding Albany. I too am warming to the idea that Lucas is Albany. Maybe it was a project to create a spy with the perfect unbreakable legend - because he believes it to be the truth. He is given implanted memories from someone else like the replicants in Blade Runner ( "how can it not know what it is?" ) Maybe someone developed a technique to manipulate memory at the cellular level in the brain.

Yeah, I know, show me a straw and I'll clutch at it! LOL

(03-11-2010 04:31 AM)Caitlinhg Wrote:  :thud:Hey, BravoNine. I was starting to think along the same lines... nobody is really suspecting Maya of anything... hardly talking about her... then I looked at the meaning of the name "Maya" in Wikipedia and found the following:

"Maya (Sanskrit माया māyāa[›]), in Indian religions, has multiple meanings, centered around the concept of "illusion". Maya is the principal deity that manifests, perpetuates and governs the illusion and dream of duality in the phenomenal Universe. For some mystics, this manifestation is real.[1] Each person, each physical object, from the perspective of eternity, is like a brief, disturbed drop of water from an unbounded ocean. The goal of enlightenment is to understand this — more precisely, to experience this: to see intuitively that the distinction between the self and the Universe is a false dichotomy."

Well... talk about various illusions being dealt with in Series 9, especially with Lucas/John, etc.! If Maya isn't more of a player in this than we all suspect or believe, at least the writers came up with an appropriate name for Lucas' obsession... or... illusion... or...???