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RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - BravoNine - 27-10-2010 11:22 AM
(27-10-2010 11:08 AM)molecatcher Wrote: As someone who follows Spooks for its brilliant scripts with no real affiliation to any one character now Ros has gone, I can sort of see both sides of the argument here. I agree with what Nitrus says that the direction they have taken Lucas does make some sense. He was in a pretty sorry state in the last series once he got involved with that CIA blonde cut-out character. He seems to crave a relationship, any relationship because he has nothing in his life. The way he's behaving is bizarre but not completely out of character. They did the same to Harry at the start of the series getting his head all messed up and Ruth is nothing like her old self. Trust the script writers. It's Spooks folks so there's bound to be one hell of a twist towards the end.
All we want is a good reason to justify these actions rather than Lucas suddenly becoming a cold-hearted ruthless traitor because he wants a relationship with a girl he loved 15 years ago, a girl he had not thought about until seeing that photo.
There is no doubt Lucas craves relationships, he has always dived in head-first into any relationship because he desires that closeness. But he has never let that turn him into an evil traitor, so for many of us Lucas fans, we have a hard time identifying this to the character we love. It may not be completely out of character, it's just that we Lucas fans like to believe in good in him.
It's not really about whether Lucas's change makes sense or not, it's more about the accusation that just because we are Lucas fans that we think he's holier than thou and that we idolize him so much that we refuse to believe that he is flawed. Which is not true and frankly rubs me the wrong way. I know he's flawed, I know he's made quite a few unsavory choices that I would like to smack him for myself, but I also believe in the good side of him, the side that is loyal, selfless, and brave. It's not a crime that I believe in Lucas, nor is it wrong or because I somehow idolize him as god-like.
I'm just tired of hearing the statements that somehow I am so blinded by idolization that I can't accept that Lucas is rotten to the core and is an evil person.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - NightOwl - 27-10-2010 12:51 PM
(27-10-2010 02:52 AM)A Cousin Wrote:(26-10-2010 09:10 PM)NightOwl Wrote: Wow. Maybe we should talk about something less contentious like politics or religion.
LOL! I find that little is less contentious. It is a testament to the writers that they can create characters (all of them) that we connect with so vehemently. But at least we are finally getting to the crux of the problem for those who feel Lucas is being ruined.
(26-10-2010 09:10 PM)NightOwl Wrote: The storyline isn't working for a number of us who believe that the characterzation of Lucas is inconsistent with series 7 and 8. It has nothing to do with idolizing him or believing him to be a "holier than thou god-like figure" (I believe that would be a better description of the Harry fans!)
Now, now was that last comment really necessary? That implies that we should be choosing favorites. Is it a choice between the two because I certainly hope not. I try to embrace all of the characters, their individual plot lines and their POVs as it pertains to the overall themes of each series. Spooks at its heart is an ensemble piece. One character is no less important than another. Which leads me to my next point.
Before I make it, let me just go on the record as saying that my next comment is not directed only to you Nightowl, but to everyone on this thread who believe that the Lucas character is being inconsistently portrayed thus far in S9.
My gripe is with the writers too but for a different reason. I think they neglected properly developing the character of Lucas through S7 and S8. He has been a character that I have had a very hard time understanding and connecting with. Many of you have expressed in this very thread that you feel in the minority in your understanding of Lucas as illustrated by the penchant for defending him so passionately. That's not your fault. It is the fault of the writers for not making Lucas a character more could relate to in S7 and S8. I do thank all of you for helping me understand him better. However, for me, he was developed in S7 and S8 as a one-trick-pony kind of character: damaged but loyal. S9 and especially 9.6 was the first time I have had any kind of sympathy and emotional connection with Lucas. I have finally been able to see the duality of his character because of everything that has happened to him, how he tortures himself and fights to maintain his honorable and loyal side despite the horrors he has been through. A fight he happens to be losing at the moment. I don't think that is character assassination. I think the Lucas character is finally getting his well deserved and long awaited development.
And stepping back from Lucas to the programme as a whole, I think his charcter arc this series is successfully illustrating the overall theme of how they live with the choices they make as well as how they lose their "selves" because of the decisions they make. Lucas has lost the music. He epitomizes the ultimate loss of self - literally and figuratively.
Also for the record, I ain't buying the Maya thing either but it isn't over yet. However, while his very honorable love for Maya is a portion of it, what is really sending him over the edge is the secret of his life as John yet to be revealed. But what happened to him in Russia makes how he reacts to (whatever it is) that happened to him prior to joining the service in a different way. He is not the John he was when he became Lucas. He can't be. I think that though Lucas' melt down, the writers have so far successfully given us something I find fascinating to explore.
I don't know how to quote bits and pieces so I have to address the whole post at once.
RE Harry fans - I'm not saying that people should choose favorites, though clearly people will have their favorites, just "Pot meet kettle."
As for Lucas's character development, I didn't see him as one-trick pony. I felt that I did know him. Yes, he can be summed up as damaged but loyal. But I saw him as a man who had lost everything, was trying to rebuild what he could, and needed to believe it was all worthwhile even as a nagging doubt told him it wasn't. I may not have read Lucas correctly, but I don't think it's entirely unreasonable view.
I disagree that it's his secret life in Africa, not his love for Maya, that's sending him over the edge. Vaughn said in 9x6 that he involved Maya because that's the leverage to manipulate Lucas. Whatever happened in Africa, without Maya the story as written wouldn't work. (Not that I think it does work, but you know what I mean.) I wish I could separate cause and effect and simply enjoy Lucas's meltdown, but I can't. I do like the idea of Lucas losing it, but the setup is too farfetched.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - Naivety - 27-10-2010 01:21 PM
One of the most poignant lines in episode 6 was when Lucas said he had stopped hearing music. He told Danielle he had no hobbies, didn't read or go to the movies. What a statement that is about someone! No wonder he falls in love easily. He certainly needs to have a life outside work.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - age1021 - 27-10-2010 01:26 PM
(27-10-2010 01:21 PM)Naivety Wrote: One of the most poignant lines in episode 6 was when Lucas said he had stopped hearing music. He told Danielle he had no hobbies, didn't read or go to the movies. What a statement that is about someone! No wonder he falls in love easily. He certainly needs to have a life outside work.
Maybe he had no interest in divulging his interest to a complete stranger.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - BravoNine - 27-10-2010 01:39 PM
(27-10-2010 12:51 PM)NightOwl Wrote: I disagree that it's his secret life in Africa, not his love for Maya, that's sending him over the edge. Vaughn said in 9x6 that he involved Maya because that's the leverage to manipulate Lucas. Whatever happened in Africa, without Maya the story as written wouldn't work. (Not that I think it does work, but you know what I mean.) I wish I could separate cause and effect and simply enjoy Lucas's meltdown, but I can't. I do like the idea of Lucas losing it, but the setup is too farfetched.
Vaughn used Maya as leverage against Lucas not just because he loves her and wants her to be safe, but because Lucas fears what will happen if Maya knew what terrible thing he had done in Africa. He fears losing her and her love, he fears Maya hating him, and it's that fear that drives Lucas into doing this.
And also the fear of the secret coming out, of other people like Harry knowing, that also scares Lucas because he fears their hatred against him. And for someone like Lucas who desperately craves the trust and love of a person close to him, it CAN be damaging and terrifying to Lucas to risk losing that. We know that Lucas has always wanted Harry's trust, it is believable that Lucas fears this secret coming out will tear that trust apart and that Harry will hate him for what he had done.
So really, what caused Lucas's frantic actions can be both attributed to his love of Maya but also his fear that Maya and Harry as well will turn away from him once they find out the truth. And for Lucas, who has always crave that close relationship, losing that trust and love is more scary than anything else. That is Vaughn's leverage because he KNOWS that Lucas needs that trust. Without it, he really doesn't have anything.
Lucas said it best himself in episode two of Series 7 when he told Harry that home is where you are with the people you love and trust and that without it "I'll never really be home, I'll just be back in England"
I think Lucas fears losing that "home" because of this secret. And right now it's driving him to the brink because his morality is clashing harshly against what Vaughn is asking him to do.
(27-10-2010 01:21 PM)Naivety Wrote: One of the most poignant lines in episode 6 was when Lucas said he had stopped hearing music. He told Danielle he had no hobbies, didn't read or go to the movies. What a statement that is about someone! No wonder he falls in love easily. He certainly needs to have a life outside work.
I think Lucas has made a statement many times that MI5 is everything to him, it's his "home", so I guess it's understandable that he has no other thing to really live for but his job.
But I do agree, Lucas really needs a life, there is something missing, and I think that's what Lucas is always craving for with his love relationships, he's trying to fill a void that he can't seem to attain.
It's no wonder that Vaughn's manipulations work so well to unhinge Lucas, that man is targeting Lucas's very weakness. This job and this love with Maya is all that Lucas has left, for Vaughn to threaten to take it all away with blowing out this dark terrible secret, Lucas stands to loose everything, so in order to keep the life that he desperately wants, he is doing what Vaughn tells him to do. But his actions have also clashed with his morality and conscience that he has gained over the years, and the decisions he has made is tearing him up inside.
----------------------------
It's funny how in the light of discovering what Lucas's dark terrible secret really is, I can finally see how this storyline really works and how Lucas's actions have started to make sense.
I've always said that I can take the storyline if I was given a damn good reason for why this secret has got Lucas so scared, and now I do know. And all I can say is that it sure is a damn good reason. I can see why Lucas never wants the secret to come out, and just what the ramifications it would have to Lucas's life if it did come out. No wonder Lucas has gone all forms of crazy to keep it a secret.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - Nitrus - 27-10-2010 02:11 PM
(27-10-2010 06:14 AM)BravoNine Wrote: And if you disagree, that's fine, but the way you phrase your words makes me feel like you are just intent on crushing our beliefs and making us agreeing with you because you are objective and we are just delusional.
If my posts do come across in that manner, then I really do apologise because that really isn't my intention. I guess I just have difficulty putting my arguments across well.
What I can't understand is that if you know he is flawed then surely that's the reason he's doing all these things? My earlier argument is that his current behaviour stems from those flaws, so what the writers are doing does make sense to me.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - BravoNine - 27-10-2010 02:38 PM
(27-10-2010 02:11 PM)Nitrus Wrote:(27-10-2010 06:14 AM)BravoNine Wrote: And if you disagree, that's fine, but the way you phrase your words makes me feel like you are just intent on crushing our beliefs and making us agreeing with you because you are objective and we are just delusional.
If my posts do come across in that manner, then I really do apologise because that really isn't my intention. I guess I just have difficulty putting my arguments across well.
What I can't understand is that if you know he is flawed then surely that's the reason he's doing all these things? My earlier argument is that his current behaviour stems from those flaws, so what the writers are doing does make sense to me.
Just because he is flawed and makes mistakes, doesn't mean that he's suddenly a cold-hearted ruthless traitor. I've always said that I can believe Lucas's actions as long as I know what the reasons are behind his actions. As how the writers so far have kept that reason secret, I don't connect to Lucas simply turning away everything he believed in for a girl he loved 15 years ago. He may desire close relationships but that's never made him a traitor.
But like I said before on my other post, as I have now discovered the secret that Lucas is so in fear of coming out, the storyline and Lucas's sudden change is making sense to me.
It didn't make sense to me before because I didn't know the reason why Lucas did the things he did, and frankly for a girl wasn't enough. But now that I know what Lucas is really trying to hide with his terrible secret, I can see why he is acting this way and even with Maya.
However way Lucas's fate ends this series, the writers certainly brought a great character story into the forefront!
I still love Lucas, and in my heart he will never stop being that loyal agent who will always come through for his people, but now I am beginning to understand his strange behaviors, and it is not out of character anymore to me to see Lucas act the way he has. The possibility of this terrible secret coming out into the open is threatening the only home and love he has left, his everything, so it now makes sense why Lucas is desperately doing anything to keep that secret from coming out.
The writers have gave a good reason, so now I can rest in peace knowing Lucas's actions are making sense in light of what this secret is.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - Who Needs Bond - 27-10-2010 02:45 PM
(27-10-2010 02:38 PM)BravoNine Wrote: But now that I know what Lucas is really trying to hide with his terrible secret, I can see why he is acting this way.
Would the secret you are referring to have anything to do with
Series 9 Spoiler: show
If so then is it also possible that
Series 9 Spoiler: show
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - Nitrus - 27-10-2010 02:48 PM
@Who Needs Bond - Those spoiler tags should've had the "=9" bit added on to ensure people know that it's a possible Series 9 spoiler. I've done them for you this time, please remember in future.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - A Cousin - 27-10-2010 03:15 PM
Excelsior! Now we are having a conversation. I have not read the spoilers and I do not know the secret, nor do I wish to know until it is revealed on the show. I still don't think that his actions in S9 are completely out of Lucas' character. He has always had this duality, it just hasn't been explored thoroughly until now.
I think this points out though, one of the reasons this thread has been so annoying to me that I almost gave up on it: the inclination to put the cart before the horse. Don't judge it until you see it. As NW said in an interview, Spooks is like a shark, it keeps moving. If you are going to watch it, you have to be able to roll with the punches and allow the characters to evolve, sometimes in some seriously whacked-out ways. That is not to say that any of us are not allowed to say, nope, that doesn't work for me, it just means that you have to give it chance before you give up on it. However, I will be curious to see how others in "Give us a good reason" camp think of this revelation.
And if I may just put this out there, another annoyance for me has been those that have been saying that if Lucas is ruined, Spooks is ruined. These are the words of those who are fixated on one character and not Spooks as a whole. One is, of course, allowed to watch or not watch the programme as they see fit, but if one were a fan of the show, the ruination of one character would not affect ones viewing habits. That mindset ignores the overall effect of Spooks. Which is unfortunate in my mind.
Great ideas though BravoNine. One to ponder. To add to it, Skully has posed an interesting theory re: Lucas/Maya in the Spooks FanBlog. If I am interpreting her words correctly, it is not so much about his love for Maya that is the leverage but rather what she represents to Lucas. Maya represents a piece of Lucas' "self," perhaps what could be termed as his "real self," that he lost/gave up/forfeit a long time ago and had forgotten/denied. By connecting with her, he is connecting with his "real self." Perhaps Maya was the only good part of that lost self?
And BTW, denial of ones self is a big part of Kierkegaard. Denying ones true self is a sure path to despair. I'd say Lucas is deep in despair. The Sickness Unto Death is despair.
Once he would gladly have given everything to be rid of this agony, but he was kept in waiting; now it is too late, now he would rather rage against everything and be the wronged victim of the whole world and of all life, and it is of particular significance to him to make sure that he has his torment on hand and that no one takes it away from him... What demonic madness — the thought that most infuriates him is that eternity could get the notion to deprive him of his misery. ~Kierkegaard The Sickness Unto Death