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RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - khandy - 27-10-2010 03:46 PM
I personally will watch Spooks without Lucas. If he leaves that doesn't bother me. He is the only character to capture my particular interest but I do like the show. I will watch one way or the other. I have read the spoilers and am still struggling with the character arc for him this series.
and one other thought relating to this comment
And if I may just put this out there, another annoyance for me has been those that have been saying that if Lucas is ruined, Spooks is ruined. These are the words of those who are fixated on one character and not Spooks as a whole. One is, of course, allowed to watch or not watch the programme as they see fit, but if one were a fan of the show, the ruination of one character would not affect ones viewing habits. That mindset ignores the overall effect of Spooks. Which is unfortunate in my mind.
So are you trying to tell me that if Ruth or Harry were the subject of this story line that the uproar would not be like Mount Etna errupting. I have lost count of the times I have read with out Harry Spooks is finished. And as for Ruth all I said was that she is just a bit too perfect this series and you would think that I'd commited a cardinal sin. So I think that comment applies to a lot of other fans not just those of Lucas
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - Silktie - 27-10-2010 03:53 PM
I haven't read the spoiler either, but I'll take Bravo's word for it that what he did is horrible enough to explain his current actions. Unfortunately, in my opinion, it was a mistake for them to reveal this reason so late. For me, who liked Lucas but who is not so emotionally invested in Lucas' journey as others here, it means that he has lost my sympathy before I could fully understand what motivates him. Now, all I'll be thinking when they give me the reason is how many other lives he's ruined in his attempt to cover it up. At some stage you have to stand up and take responsibility for your actions, instead of ruining more people's lives in an attempt to save yourself.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - BravoNine - 27-10-2010 05:15 PM
(27-10-2010 03:53 PM)Silktie Wrote: I haven't read the spoiler either, but I'll take Bravo's word for it that what he did is horrible enough to explain his current actions. Unfortunately, in my opinion, it was a mistake for them to reveal this reason so late. For me, who liked Lucas but who is not so emotionally invested in Lucas' journey as others here, it means that he has lost my sympathy before I could fully understand what motivates him. Now, all I'll be thinking when they give me the reason is how many other lives he's ruined in his attempt to cover it up. At some stage you have to stand up and take responsibility for your actions, instead of ruining more people's lives in an attempt to save yourself.
Well, I think what he did (without telling you what it is that he did) was horrible enough to explain why he's currently going all loco on everyone else. What he did could be considered an ultimate betrayal to everything he had been fighting against. So I can see why Lucas is maddeningly in fear that Maya and Harry will find out the truth, because frankly what he did, there is more than enough reason for both Maya and Harry to wash their hands of Lucas, and for Lucas who has always been desperate to have a close relationship and to have an anchor or "home", losing that is something that is incredibly damaging to his already messed up psyche.
I do think that putting out the reason at the very end is a mistake in the sense that because like you said, some fans that aren't as emotionally attached to the character may not react with much sympathy for Lucas because of the choices he has made.
I am not giving up on a Lucas-Redemption. Things looks bad right now, what secret he is holding back is bad, but there is still time for Lucas to stand up and take responsibility for his actions and end this. There is still a shred of hope that Lucas will come through and do the right thing, and as long as there is still hope, I will believe in that, I will believe that Lucas will not let me down.
And just personally for me, what he had done 15 years ago, this terrible secret that he has been holding back, I think he paid for those horrible choices he made when he was a young man with the sufferings he endured those 8 years in a Russian cell being tortured for Queen and Country, and his continued service in protecting and saving the country and its citizens.
I really hope when Harry and Lucas have their confrontation, Harry can help him fix this. Because I believe that if Harry can stand by Lucas and help, then this storyline has a chance of ending on a happy note. But if Lucas loses Harry's backing and trust, then there is no telling how far Lucas will go off the rails in order to save Maya on his own because frankly what he stands to loose is EVERYTHING and I can see him taking down anyone who threatens that.
And also, now it finally makes a lot of sense why Lucas reacted to Connie's betrayal so deeply.
This secret really explains a lot of Lucas's character and his actions, at least it does to me.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - Beatriz - 27-10-2010 05:26 PM
So, my take on Lucas, I don't think he's evil or anything, I think circumstances have made him who he is right now. He is a troubled man, he has never recovered from his 8 years in a cell... I think now, he is in survival mode, he wants to hide a secret Vaughan knows and if that secret is revealed he will lose MI5 and everything he has now and his last chance to get a normal life... I guess that includes Maya. The problem is that he has gone too far to keep that secret, he's not himself anymore IMO; he's just acting desperately and he's no longer in control of himself.
Comparisons are horrible, if I've said there's no Spooks without Harry, it's because he's being there from the beginning and he's like the thread that unites all the series. As much as I love Ruth, I would never say the same of her, she's dispensable.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - BravoNine - 27-10-2010 05:38 PM
(27-10-2010 05:26 PM)Beatriz Wrote: So, my take on Lucas, I don't think he's evil or anything, I think circumstances have made him who he is right now. He is a troubled man, he has never recovered from his 8 years in a cell... I think now, he is in survival mode, he wants to hide a secret Vaughan knows and if that secret is revealed he will lose MI5 and everything he has now and his last chance to get a normal life... I guess that includes Maya. The problem is that he has gone too far to keep that secret, he's not himself anymore IMO; he's just acting desperately and he's no longer in control of himself.
Agreed.
It's like his John personality and his Lucas personality are finally at a collision and both are trying to fight this internal battle for control, and this secret and his actions have turned his whole world upside down. I've always said that Lucas in survival mode will do anything to survive, if he didn't have that side of him, I don't think he would have held out that long in Russia. The fact that he didn't return from that imprisonment an incoherent mess is a miracle.
For all I know, this series may just end with Lucas being carted off to an institution because he has lost his mind over everything that's been happening. Who knows, that may actually be an interesting route for the character, don't think we've had an exit like that before. We've had people retire, die, or run away to hide, we've never really had one who officially lost his/her mind because of the job/stress/secrets, it may be interesting to see that angle being played, and maybe for the rest of the team to see just how high of a price you have to pay sometimes to do this job or live/survive in this world. That may actually just be quite a lesson to the newbie kids to learn that you can be brilliant and the best for one second and fall into the abyss the next.
Isn't there a saying that "if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you"? I think this applies quite well to Lucas.
(27-10-2010 05:26 PM)Beatriz Wrote: Comparisons are horrible, if I've said there's no Spooks without Harry, it's because he's being there from the beginning and he's like the thread that unites all the series. As much as I love Ruth, I would never say the same of her, she's dispensable.
I think with Harry is that he has gained too strong of a foothold, the show has allowed him to get this strong by letting him be in all the series. People identify with a strong foundation and Harry is it. He is the constant in this show for the last 9 years, he's the rock, the leader, if he falls, then it's like a building without a foundation, it will crumble.
None of the other characters carry the longevity that Harry does, therefore in a lot of people's minds, they are expendable except for Harry.
Some characters simply have too strong of a hold on a show, and the show may survive the character's departure and find a strong replacement, but it will never be the same. Kinda like CSI losing its leader Gil Grissom after which the ratings dropped over 25% or imagining CSI Miami without its red-headed team leader and indestructible foundation Horatio Caine.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - A Cousin - 27-10-2010 06:50 PM
(27-10-2010 03:46 PM)khandy Wrote: So are you trying to tell me that if Ruth or Harry were the subject of this story line that the uproar would not be like Mount Etna errupting. I have lost count of the times I have read with out Harry Spooks is finished. And as for Ruth all I said was that she is just a bit too perfect this series and you would think that I'd commited a cardinal sin. So I think that comment applies to a lot of other fans not just those of Lucas
khandy, I can't be a hypocrite. I also cannot speak for others. From my perspective, Harry would be a hard loss for Spooks and a huge marketing and promotional mistake. Not because of any devotion to the character or even the actor. It is simple playwrighting mechanics. Harry gives a structural through line to the programme S1-9. Harry is the dramatic "Everyman." I am confident that at the bitter end, they will write Harry out in as spectacular a way as they are currently doing with Lucas. IMO, of course. If that challenges my previous notions of who and what I thought the character is, I will be along for the ride. Who knows? Maybe Harry is going to die at the end of S9 and Lucas becomes Head of Section D? Now that would be an interesting thing to see!
Ruth - not so much. Once again, I can only speak for myself. I have mentioned on many other boards, despite that fact that I have been a huge champion of the motivations the writers have given her this series, I suspect Ruth of being more invested in the overall plot of the series than has hitherto been revealed. Come on over to the Ruth thread and discuss this with me. I think Lucas is getting jealous!
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - BravoNine - 27-10-2010 07:01 PM
(27-10-2010 06:50 PM)A Cousin Wrote: I think Lucas is getting jealous!
Well considering Harry has never talked to him "properly" like he promised in the beginning of Series 7 nor has Harry ever gave him hugs or cookies for all his efforts to save London, it's no wonder Lucas has gone stir crazy!!!
This is clearly all Harry's fault....
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - theeyeshaveit - 28-10-2010 04:16 PM
Knowing the spoiler from next week, I still don't think what Lucas has to hide can explain why he would have chosen the dangerous and unlikely to succeed action path he opted for, or would have stayed with it for very long if he did. Even if I accept he was obsessed with being with Maya, I believe the character I have seen in the series 7 and 8 would have thought his best chance to be with Maya would have been to face Harry, for practical reasons, let alone moral ones. It has to wait until it is all over before i can give my reasons.
It has done what was intended though in creating massive interest and keeping people hooked so it's a good story for Spooks. What is turning a character sour compared to that, just a trifle. As someone said, all except Harry are expendable.
I think Ruth going bad might have made more sense though. They would not have had to invent something never heard of before and an unbelievable romance, (Lucas had already had two for heaven's sake!), to explain it. We all saw the way Ruth was sucked back into MI5; she could easily have had a festering grief, regret and resentment lead her to revenge of some sort to provide the series intrigue and shock. She could even have led Harry on in the process to really shock. I wonder what the discussions would be like had they gone that path.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - khandy - 28-10-2010 04:25 PM
Having said that Lucas should talk to Harry I can think of two occassions when Lucas went to Harry with something and Harry lied Sugar Horse and Nightingale so not that I think it is relevant or that the writers have used it but maybe that is why Lucas has not gone to Harry
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - molecatcher - 28-10-2010 05:26 PM
(27-10-2010 11:22 AM)BravoNine Wrote:(27-10-2010 11:08 AM)molecatcher Wrote: As someone who follows Spooks for its brilliant scripts with no real affiliation to any one character now Ros has gone, I can sort of see both sides of the argument here. I agree with what Nitrus says that the direction they have taken Lucas does make some sense. He was in a pretty sorry state in the last series once he got involved with that CIA blonde cut-out character. He seems to crave a relationship, any relationship because he has nothing in his life. The way he's behaving is bizarre but not completely out of character. They did the same to Harry at the start of the series getting his head all messed up and Ruth is nothing like her old self. Trust the script writers. It's Spooks folks so there's bound to be one hell of a twist towards the end.
All we want is a good reason to justify these actions rather than Lucas suddenly becoming a cold-hearted ruthless traitor because he wants a relationship with a girl he loved 15 years ago, a girl he had not thought about until seeing that photo.
There is no doubt Lucas craves relationships, he has always dived in head-first into any relationship because he desires that closeness. But he has never let that turn him into an evil traitor, so for many of us Lucas fans, we have a hard time identifying this to the character we love. It may not be completely out of character, it's just that we Lucas fans like to believe in good in him.
It's not really about whether Lucas's change makes sense or not, it's more about the accusation that just because we are Lucas fans that we think he's holier than thou and that we idolize him so much that we refuse to believe that he is flawed. Which is not true and frankly rubs me the wrong way. I know he's flawed, I know he's made quite a few unsavory choices that I would like to smack him for myself, but I also believe in the good side of him, the side that is loyal, selfless, and brave. It's not a crime that I believe in Lucas, nor is it wrong or because I somehow idolize him as god-like.
I'm just tired of hearing the statements that somehow I am so blinded by idolization that I can't accept that Lucas is rotten to the core and is an evil person.
No worries, I completely understand that at the moment you can't see where the storyline is taking Lucas, just as Harry and Ruth fans are becoming totally frustrated with what might look like another series of long looks and misunderstandings. I realise there is now a spoiler out there giving a clue to Lucas' behaviour so I've quickly skipped through reading the posts because I don't want to know and it's amazing what even a hint can tell you. Hope whatever it is puts your mind at rest and I for one would certainly never accuse anyone of idolising a character. I thought Ros was irreplaceable and this series would be rubbish without her but I'm loving it so there's hope for everyone for series 10 whatever the outcome.