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RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - BravoNine - 30-10-2010 11:39 PM
(30-10-2010 05:17 PM)theeyeshaveit Wrote: I can't speak for anyone else here, but even if I agreed Lucas has the character to do the things he has done, my impression is that Lucas is an intelligent man with a great deal of respect, affection and trust for Harry and I find it hard to believe that Lucas would think the dangerous and hard to hide path he has undertaken would give him more chance of being with Maya than facing Harry and Maya with his past and with Vaughn's return to his life.
I don't doubt Lucas's intelligence nor his respect, affection, and trust for Harry. But the fact is that intelligence and affection has nothing to do with this, this isn't about a man thinking rationally, this is about a man who is in fear and doing the first thing he can think of, hiding the truth. This isn't about Lucas's intelligence, and just because he chose to take the dangerous path doesn't mean he is not intelligent, it just makes him a flawed human.
I mean, how many times have we ourselves make choices that we know are gonna get us in trouble, that we are better off just telling the truth, yet we still hide it anyways? I'm guilty of doing that so many times, always trying to hide things from my mother even though I know eventually the truth is gonna come out and that I should just tell her in the first place, but I don't, I never do. And it's the same line of thought with Lucas. It's not about intelligence, it's about self-preservation, because it's our first instinct when we do something wrong, we want to hide, we want to lie, and then that lie gets deeper and deeper until we dig a hole so far that we can't get out of. It's a very human thing to do. And god knows Lucas isn't the first nor will he be the last person to ever make that kind of mistake.
Yes in all logic sense, Lucas should know that his years of loyal service should count for something, that if he just confesses to Harry, that things wouldn't have gotten so out of control. But Lucas panicked, he wasn't thinking with logic, he was thinking about survival, he was thinking that he couldn't risk ANY chance that he would loose everything he ever fought for in this life.
Do I like Lucas's actions or agree with them? No. But I do understand his feelings.
I rate Lucas highly in loyalty, ethics, and intelligence as well, but just because he rates highly in all three, doesn't mean he is always gonna keep to that. He is not always gonna be perfect, he can make mistakes for once in his life. Even the best of us can make horrible mistakes, Lucas is not immune to that, but that doesn't mean Lucas lost his intelligence or his loyalty or his ethics, one moment that blinded him to his goodness doesn't take everything away. And for Lucas right now, he is struggling to deal with the duality of being John and being Lucas, and who does he really want to be.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - theeyeshaveit - 31-10-2010 12:38 PM
(30-10-2010 11:39 PM)BravoNine Wrote:(30-10-2010 05:17 PM)theeyeshaveit Wrote: I can't speak for anyone else here, but even if I agreed Lucas has the character to do the things he has done, my impression is that Lucas is an intelligent man with a great deal of respect, affection and trust for Harry and I find it hard to believe that Lucas would think the dangerous and hard to hide path he has undertaken would give him more chance of being with Maya than facing Harry and Maya with his past and with Vaughn's return to his life.
I don't doubt Lucas's intelligence nor his respect, affection, and trust for Harry. But the fact is that intelligence and affection has nothing to do with this, this isn't about a man thinking rationally, this is about a man who is in fear and doing the first thing he can think of, hiding the truth. This isn't about Lucas's intelligence, and just because he chose to take the dangerous path doesn't mean he is not intelligent, it just makes him a flawed human.
I mean, how many times have we ourselves make choices that we know are gonna get us in trouble, that we are better off just telling the truth, yet we still hide it anyways? I'm guilty of doing that so many times, always trying to hide things from my mother even though I know eventually the truth is gonna come out and that I should just tell her in the first place, but I don't, I never do. And it's the same line of thought with Lucas. It's not about intelligence, it's about self-preservation, because it's our first instinct when we do something wrong, we want to hide, we want to lie, and then that lie gets deeper and deeper until we dig a hole so far that we can't get out of. It's a very human thing to do. And god knows Lucas isn't the first nor will he be the last person to ever make that kind of mistake.
Yes in all logic sense, Lucas should know that his years of loyal service should count for something, that if he just confesses to Harry, that things wouldn't have gotten so out of control. But Lucas panicked, he wasn't thinking with logic, he was thinking about survival, he was thinking that he couldn't risk ANY chance that he would loose everything he ever fought for in this life.
Do I like Lucas's actions or agree with them? No. But I do understand his feelings.
I rate Lucas highly in loyalty, ethics, and intelligence as well, but just because he rates highly in all three, doesn't mean he is always gonna keep to that. He is not always gonna be perfect, he can make mistakes for once in his life. Even the best of us can make horrible mistakes, Lucas is not immune to that, but that doesn't mean Lucas lost his intelligence or his loyalty or his ethics, one moment that blinded him to his goodness doesn't take everything away. And for Lucas right now, he is struggling to deal with the duality of being John and being Lucas, and who does he really want to be.
Before I answer you, can I just say, I don't think Lucas would be morally capable of taking this path as far as he has, but I was just addressing the problems I see with him choosing this as a practical option.
He has been in hairy situations, personal and professional, past and present, before where he has not panicked, I don't see why he would panic and become irrational in this one, certainly not for long enough to keep going with it when he realised how much Vaughn wanted and exactly how far he would have to go to please him. I guess we have to agree to differ, I don't think Lucas would make such a poor choice when he has reason to expect some understanding from Harry, and if he did when first surprised by Vaughn, I don't think he would have persisted with it when he realised what he was going to have to do to succeed. Why would he ever believe Vaughn meant what he said and that he and Maya would ever be free, Vaughn has just continually asked more as blackmailers do? Lucas knows how blackmailers operate Perhaps he has just lost his marbles.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - BravoNine - 31-10-2010 01:04 PM
(31-10-2010 12:38 PM)theeyeshaveit Wrote: Before I answer you, can I just say, I don't think Lucas would be morally capable of taking this path as far as he has, but I was just addressing the problems I see with him choosing this as a practical option.
He has been in hairy situations, personal and professional, past and present, before where he has not panicked, I don't see why he would panic and become irrational in this one, certainly not for long enough to keep going with it when he realised how much Vaughn wanted and exactly how far he would have to go to please him. I guess we have to agree to differ, I don't think Lucas would make such a poor choice when he has reason to expect some understanding from Harry, and if he did when first surprised by Vaughn, I don't think he would have persisted with it when he realised what he was going to have to do to succeed. Why would he ever believe Vaughn meant what he said and that he and Maya would ever be free, Vaughn has just continually asked more as blackmailers do? Lucas knows how blackmailers operate Perhaps he has just lost his marbles.
One's morality and ethics can easily be compromised when emotions/revenge/self preservation are taken in account. We've seen Harry crossed the lines of morality and rule of law when it came to dealing with revenge, it would not be impossible for Lucas to cross that line either considering the nature of his job and his tendency to test the boundaries.
Yes Lucas has been in hairy situations before, but none as threatening as this has been. Before it was about his physical life or because he may loose a love relationship, but this time, it's about his entire reason to live, his entire reason for existence. This secret that he is so desperately trying to hide could be the very reason that everything he has ever fought so hard to achieve will come tumbling down in smokes.
Perhaps you have a hard time understanding the reasons of Lucas's actions, and I get that, sometimes we are just different and have different views, that's cool.
But for me, I understand Lucas's desperation, especially concerning why he is going so far to hide this secret even though he should by all logic know that Harry would understand. I've stood in Lucas's shoes before, although definitely not as dramatic as the choices he has been dealing with, but the same feeling and the same general line of thought. There are times when it doesn't matter how much logic and intelligence you possess, because when you feel trapped, when you fear that your whole life is threatening to tumble down around you, you would do anything, and I mean anything, to stop it from happening. Your instincts kick in and you just want to hide and make it go away even though you always know in the back of your head that it wouldn't be this easy.
I think for us as viewers it's easier to stand on the outside and observe objectively and wonder why characters make certain choices when they know it's not logical or intelligent, but the thing is that not everything we do in life is logical or intelligent, sometimes we make dumb choices, we do irrational things in the name of love or in the name of survival or the greater good.
Lucas isn't the first character to walk down a road of stupid choices even though he should know better than that, and I think that creates for me a sense of humanity in these characters. They are flawed, not perfect, and if they make stupid decisions, well, I can understand that because I've made plenty of dumb choices in my short lifetime.
But these are just my opinions, yours are different and that's fine with me.
I just feel like I can relate to Lucas's current situation, and well, you know what they say, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions", and for me that's certainly what it's looking like for Lucas.As for the whole thing with Vaughn, we still don't know how he is connected to Lucas and what their relationship really is, so until I know that, it's hard for me to determine why Lucas would agree or why Vaughn seems to have such a hold on Lucas.
I think for Lucas right now, he's in a struggle between two personalities, who he was before as John, and who he has become now as Lucas. These two personalities are fighting it out.
What really comes down to it in the end is what choice will Lucas make, will he do what is right or what is easy?
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - theeyeshaveit - 31-10-2010 02:25 PM
I won't quote your post bravonine, things are getting pretty long.
I think Lucas returning to Russia was a far more hairy thing to do than to face the current situation. He was certainly under real threat then and faced with moments when he could have panicked and made bad decisions.
As you say, anyone is capable of a stupid decision and I have even allowed Lucas might have made one momentarily when confronted with Vaughn and his initial request. I don't think Lucas would have gone on being stupid when he found out more however.
I am not saying I don't understand the Lucas/John being presented to us and I have commented clearly on them being so much two different personalities, and I have entertained some wild explanations for it. I am just saying I have trouble believing the explanation we have currently been presented with as the reason for it. It has worked magnificently, it has kept me glued, it has has me concerned about Lucas, it has shattered me about Lucas, but I still have trouble believing the reasons for it all make sense in the context of the Lucas I picture from series 7 and 8. Given the aims of the writers and the success of the series, that matters not a jot to anyone but me and it may well be because I have formed the wrong picture of Lucas, so I think it is good if it gels for other people.
My comments are relevant only to the picture of what we know to this point. If other factors are in play which could have impacted his decision, who knows what I will make of what he is doing.
It seemed to me Lucas made his decision between right and wrong/easy in episode 6. I am not sure what he can do to make up for that. A last minute do good act for redemption would be a bit trite on the part of the writers.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - BravoNine - 31-10-2010 02:38 PM
(31-10-2010 02:25 PM)theeyeshaveit Wrote: I think Lucas returning to Russia was a far more hairy thing to do than to face the current situation. He was certainly under real threat then and faced with moments when he could have panicked and made bad decisions.
There is no doubt that Lucas returning to Russia for the Sugarhorse stuff was indeed a hairy situation where he was under real physical and emotional threat. But such is the nature of his job, these are threats that he knows how to fight against, risks that he is willing to take, and all because he has something to fight for. He has a home to fight for, friends to fight for, a family to fight for. Whatever happens at that time, he could deal with it because he has a reason to keep fighting, a reason to live and exist, the same reasons that kept him alive for 8 years in that Russian prison. If something were to happen to him, he knows for sure that his people, his family, his team, will come through for him.
But what he is facing now is something that is on a completely different level. This secret that he is hiding is threatening the foundation of his home, his existence, and his life. This is more than just simple emotional or physical harm that he could be dealing with, this is about the destruction of EVERYTHING he has ever built or ever lived for. This secret if it comes out could very well destroy the only love he has left and the only family he has left. If he loses that, he loses his identity, his whole reason for existence. If this secret comes out, he very well could loose everything and there would be no one to save him, no one to come through for him and get him out of the darkness. That's what is scaring him more than a return to Russia.
That kind of a loss this secret can bring is a lot more damaging than returning to Russia can be.
And as for a last minute redemption, I don't think it would be trite at all. If it can happen in real life, then there's no reason why it can't happen in fiction. People make last minute decisions all the time, there are very good reasons that the writers can use to explain why Lucas choose to ultimately do the right thing. Lucas still has plenty of chances to turn things around and go out of this a hero. The light at the end of the tunnel still isn't out yet.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - theeyeshaveit - 31-10-2010 04:14 PM
(31-10-2010 02:38 PM)BravoNine Wrote: There is no doubt that Lucas returning to Russia for the Sugarhorse stuff was indeed a hairy situation where he was under real physical and emotional threat. But such is the nature of his job, these are threats that he knows how to fight against, risks that he is willing to take, and all because he has something to fight for. He has a home to fight for, friends to fight for, a family to fight for. Whatever happens at that time, he could deal with it because he has a reason to keep fighting, a reason to live and exist, the same reasons that kept him alive for 8 years in that Russian prison. If something were to happen to him, he knows for sure that his people, his family, his team, will come through for him.
But what he is facing now is something that is on a completely different level. This secret that he is hiding is threatening the foundation of his home, his existence, and his life. This is more than just simple emotional or physical harm that he could be dealing with, this is about the destruction of EVERYTHING he has ever built or ever lived for. This secret if it comes out could very well destroy the only love he has left and the only family he has left. If he loses that, he loses his identity, his whole reason for existence. If this secret comes out, he very well could loose everything and there would be no one to save him, no one to come through for him and get him out of the darkness. That's what is scaring him more than a return to Russia.
That kind of a loss this secret can bring is a lot more damaging than returning to Russia can be.
And as for a last minute redemption, I don't think it would be trite at all. If it can happen in real life, then there's no reason why it can't happen in fiction. People make last minute decisions all the time, there are very good reasons that the writers can use to explain why Lucas choose to ultimately do the right thing. Lucas still has plenty of chances to turn things around and go out of this a hero. The light at the end of the tunnel still isn't out yet.
I am not sure Lucas had a home, friends and family to fight for when he went to Russia. He was not expecting to resume life with Elizaveta and he only seemed to have Harry to fight for to me. Having family and a life would make him less willing to take the Russian risk I think, he would have more to lose, so I am arguing against myself here. i think he would have taken that risk though.
I thought the point of Maya's introduction was because Lucas had no home, existence or life currently either that Vaughn could threaten. I feel he has chosen the least likely path to forming a life with her, and I don't believe he would have lost as much if he had faced Harry, he had far more to lose with the path he is on. I think he would have realised that after he saw what Vaughn was about and not gone down his current path.
I agree the story is not over and whether it will ultimately convince me I don't know, but at this point it doesn't. We shall see, and hope in unison for the best for Lucas.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - BravoNine - 31-10-2010 04:36 PM
(31-10-2010 04:14 PM)theeyeshaveit Wrote: I am not sure Lucas had a home, friends and family to fight for when he went to Russia. He was not expecting to resume life with Elizaveta and he only seemed to have Harry to fight for to me. Having family and a life would make him less willing to take the Russian risk I think, he would have more to lose, so I am arguing against myself here. i think he would have taken that risk though.
I think this is where you may not be understanding me. It's not about the physical idea of home and family, and it's not about Elizabeta. The "home" I'm talking about is MI5 and Harry, that's his "home" as Lucas himself stated. His team is his home, where people understand and trust him. He took that risk because a member of his family was in danger, so he went to Russia to help save Harry. He could take that risk because he knew that he had something to hold onto and fight for. At worst he will be sent away to a Russian jail cell again, but it would be worth it to fight for his family.
But with this secret that he's hiding, what's at risk is that very "home" that Lucas would do anything to keep safe. The worst case scenario here wouldn't just be sent to a jail cell and be tested for his loyalty, it would be that he will never have that home again, there would be no escape and nothing to fight for this time, that he will be swallowed up by the darkness and the abyss. There would be nothing to fight for because by then he will have lost it all. That's the worst case scenario more frightening than being tortured because he remained loyal to his country.
(31-10-2010 04:14 PM)theeyeshaveit Wrote: I thought the point of Maya's introduction was because Lucas had no home, existence or life currently either that Vaughn could threaten. I feel he has chosen the least likely path to forming a life with her, and I don't believe he would have lost if he had faced Harry, he had far more to lose with the path he is on. I think he would have realised that after he saw what Vaughn was about and not gone down his current path.
Well, as I have explained before, you can see all his errors in logic objectively but Lucas can't. In his head, all he sees is that he can loose everything he ever fought for, and when people are in that kind of desperation to protect what they have, all logic goes out the window. While you may not believe that he would not have lost if he faced Harry, but you can't know that for sure and neither does Lucas know for sure, and for even a shred of chance that Harry can turn away from him, Lucas can't risk that so he keeps digging himself into this hole so far down that he can't get out of. There is no logic, what Lucas carries inside is a bunch of messed up emotions, feelings, fear, and desperation.
Yes I agree with you that Lucas should have realized that the path he is taking will only lead to nothing good, but like I said before, a path of fear and desperation is not easy to get off from, you realized that your path is stupid and wrong, but you keep on going and going because it's what you know, it's becoming instinct. I know that feeling very well, traveling down a dangerous path that I know is wrong and stupid, but I do it anyways because I just can't stop it.
Believe me there have been enough moments where I want to smack Lucas for doing stupid things and making horrible decisions, but when I think from Lucas's point of view of what he stands to loose, I can see and understand why.
(31-10-2010 04:14 PM)theeyeshaveit Wrote: I agree the story is not over and whether it will ultimately convince me I don't know, but at this point it doesn't. We shall see, and hope in unison for the best for Lucas.
I only question why Lucas didn't shoot Vaughn when he had the chance?
And other than that, I understand Lucas's actions and reasons, I can relate to them.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - WhiteSwan - 31-10-2010 11:23 PM
In this argument I'm definitely more on the side of theeyeshaveit, because I just can't believe Lucas would act in such a stupid and evil way when being blackmailed. He's intelligent enough and well trained enough to know how to deal with a blackmailer. Time and again he's reacted in a very calm, controlled way in many extremely difficult situations, so why would he break after meeting Vaughn a couple of times and taking one look at a photograph of Maya - that seriously can't put more pressure on him than 8 years of imprisonment and torture? What's puzzling me is the fact that Vaughn doesn't really threaten him with telling Harry about his secret. He only tries that once and Lucas reacts just as he should - he calmly suggests to call Harry immediately. It doesn't really matter if this was a bluff or not, what's important to me is the fact that the fear of loosing Harry's trust, his work at MI5, his "family" at MI5 apparently can't be what all of that is really about, because in that moment he still is in control. It's only when Vaughn threatens to tell Maya that Lucas gives up every resistance and forgets all about honour, moral values and everything he had fought for for such a long time. So he's willing to risk his life, his freedom, his existance for a woman he had not seen or thought of for 15 years. I'm sorry, but I find that impossible to believe.
There was another thing that seemed very strange to me in 9.6: when he receives "Harry's" order to kill the girl he still is the Lucas we know - he questions the order, he refuses to kill an innocent civilian and he's intelligent enough to find out the truth. And he keeps protecting her, even though she threatens to tell about the little excursion to Malcolm's house, even though he knows she could be a risk to him. And in the instance she says the word "Albany" he switches from Lucas to John, from good to evil. (By the way, I can't see one single good reason, why she should suddenly mention Albany, but that's a point for discussion in the 9.6 thread). I desperately hope we will get a convincing explanation for that. Plus an explanation why he doesn't kill Vaughn. Something better than just saying "oh, if he killed Vaughn we wouldn't have had a storyline anymore"
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - redlyn - 31-10-2010 11:42 PM
Having just watched Ep 6 again there are tiny moments which are so telling - it's just a stunning portrayal. Watch the right side of his mouth at the beginning when he's waiting for the phonecall in the car - there's a slight uncontrollable twitching of fear and worry. The end scene with the dying girl in his arms is a masterclass of self-loathing. As he asks Malcolm for Albany his eyes dip as he says the word as if despite the elaborate lie he has come up with, he can't help but mentally flinch as he betrays an old friend. It's the small moments rather than the shouty obvious stuff that add up to a man at odds with himself.
I agree that it's hard to believe the justification behind the turn in behaviour but there are enough hints of the Lucas we know and love to make the disintegration of his character a beautifully harrowing thing to watch. Give that man an award!
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - theeyeshaveit - 01-11-2010 12:36 AM
I agree with Whiteswan (and Bravonine in some respects).
I am fully behind the observation that he behaves like two people, the effectively functioning Lucas and the basket case John, and switches between them as if he gets signals - whatever they may be. If that is what is happening to him and we eventually learn why, all will be explained fine for me.
If he is just Lucas behaving this way for the reasons given so far, this Lucas does not make sense to me. He must be desperate and ruthless in order to let Daniella dies in his arms, something a normal Lucas would not be. Yet a few minutes earlier, he was normal Lucas. He already knew Daniella knew something dangerous about him and that one slip of anything she knew would land him with awkward questions, yet when presented with a perfect excuse to kill her, it was a huge struggle for him to do and he did his normal Lucas thing and went to everything he could think of to avoid doing it. I think in that short time he had come to respect and like her. After doing his utmost to save her and seeming upset she had been shot, she utters Albany and his realising she is a bit more danger to him than he thought, suddenly turns him into this desperate and ruthless person that can calculatingly take her life to save his own neck.
That is a transformation that does not ring true for me, and I hope he let Daniella die for other reasons. At the killing point, after getting orders from a false Harry on his normal communication channels, he knows something really bad has happened at the grid and he must be in doubt that the grid and/or Harry still exist. There are so many complications possible in his reasoning that arise from this and it makes it hard for me to buy that he only has himself on his mind at that time and has gone from operationally functioning Lucas to totally private Lucas, in a matter of minutes just because he found Daniella was a bit more danger to him than he first thought. Where would his personal troubles be rating in those few minutes if he is contemplating that Harry is dead at that time? Not first, foremost and only for mine.