+- Spooks Forum (http://www.spooksforum.co.uk)
+-- Forum: MI5 Operations (/forum-3.html)
+--- Forum: Character & Actor Discussion (/forum-23.html)
+--- Thread: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. (/thread-1214.html)
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - theeyeshaveit - 09-11-2010 03:51 PM
What disappoints so much is not what they did with Lucas in making him act like a rogue agent, but the why.
We could have had 90% of what we got, someone coming back on the scene to push his buttons, him doing everything he did, us coming up with the same theories like, is he undercover, is he reprogrammed, is he working for the Russians, and it could have played out pretty much the same. They had plenty of reasons why he could have behaved this way because of events in his MI5 past, which would not have totally destroyed and demeaned his character as did the option they went with and it was not even believable.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - BravoNine - 09-11-2010 04:04 PM
Poor poor Lucas, on that rooftop with Harry when Harry had said that he wished Lucas/John had met him first before Vaughn, you KNOW that Lucas/John wished the same, that he had met Harry first, got a chance to live that different life, and who knows, maybe this would have ended much differently. RA and PF really sold that scene, two people who love each other, respects each other, and knew they were standing at the end of the line and wished that they could save each other. But I guess in a way "Lucas" did save Harry by jumping off that building. Suppose that means something.
Anyways, this storyline is so convoluted and a mess that I can't even begin to say where it all went wrong. Between the magic suitcase with old photos and the love interest who had about as much personality as a sponge, this storyline was never gonna end up good.
I've seen some convoluted messy storylines before, heck 24 had the Tony Almeida resurrection storyline in Season 7 that was just about as convoluted and messed up as this Lucas plot, but at least that storyline made sense emotionally. At least Tony's reasons for doing what he did, for all the bad things he had done, they made sense, how he became what he is, what he had lost, what took him over the edge. I could understand that. But this Lucas storyline, the reasons are all wrong and that's where it just doesn't ring true to me.
There were so many other ways this storylines could have gone with different reasons and still ended up with Lucas's death if that's how the writers wanted it, and there were plenty of other very plausible and good reasons too, but the writers just had to go with the one that was the most unbelievable and the most insulting to his fans.
If the good loyal dedicated Lucas North that they portrayed him to be in the Series 7 and 8 was really just all one big act, then what's next? Tariq is really just an axe murderer? Dimitri is really a serial killer?
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - HellsBells - 09-11-2010 04:15 PM
Or Harry's a Chinese spy and Ruth used to be a man.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - BravoNine - 09-11-2010 04:27 PM
(09-11-2010 04:15 PM)HellsBells Wrote: Or Harry's a Chinese spy and Ruth used to be a man.
Or Beth was really sent by foreign agencies to spy on MI5! *GASP*
But then again, with the horrible vetting process and its inability to ever find out moles and traitors before it's too late, it's no wonder MI5 never saw any of this coming!
It's a miracle that MI5 hasn't become the laughing stock of the whole intelligence world.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - Silktie - 09-11-2010 04:50 PM
I agree whole-heartedly that it was a rather nonsensical storyline to give Lucas, and even to someone like me who liked Lucas well enough but wasn't really emotionally invested in him, it doesn't ring true to the Lucas presented to us the previous few series. But now that they've done it, I'm interested to know what everyone thinks about Lucas/John if we have to accept the story given to us as truth?
Can we really blame anyone else for his situation, seeing as he was the one who made his own choices all along? He's the one who chose to plant that bomb, and who chose to kill the real Lucas North and steal his identity. And when Vaughn came back to haunt him, he chose to deceive, lie and even let people die to keep his secret rather than come clean. Then, when he learnt what Albany really was, he still gave it to the Chinese.
I guess what I'm wondering is if all this, if you put it on a balance sheet against enduring eight years and torture in a Russian prison, makes him come out even or not?
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - BravoNine - 09-11-2010 05:00 PM
I'm of the thought that there are certain things that you simply CANNOT fake. They can try to tell me that Lucas or rather John Bateman is just this cold-hearted killer who is out for himself, but I refuse to believe that the Lucas North that I saw giving his life to protect Queen and Country, risking his safety for his team, and always being there for Harry when it counted as just a simple fake act to deceive everyone. Even if he is evil John, a part of Lucas North remained in him, and to me, that part of the Lucas I love was in there fighting evil John all the way.
I can't really say that there is a balance sheet to keep track of the scores, you can't really put a statistic on how much is one life worth or even millions of lives. But John Bateman, whoever he was, whatever dark path he took, Lucas North was able to put a stop in his tracks because even though the real Lucas North was killed in Dakar all those years ago, that Lucas was living inside John, and that Lucas stopped John from killing Ruth, killing all those people at the station, and from killing Harry. I think in a way the real Lucas North has been here with us all along inside John.
I am still curious as to why RA has not announce his exit from Spooks, surely now that the show is over, he can say it? I mean, most of the other cast who made exits normally have announced either before or right after the exit, but I haven't heard a peep from the RA corner on his departure. Are they still trying to keep something secret? Or are they trying to imply that Lucas may return even though he seems pretty dead with Harry's expression looking down? Very curious!
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - tastiger - 09-11-2010 07:28 PM
As much as I would love to see RA return the writers have made it impossible for me to support his character. As John, he became a killer for personal gain which took him beyond the brink of salvation. I could never look upon him again without revulsion and I guess that's what makes it so difficult to come to terms with his demise.
The Lucas/Ruth scenes were riveting and I saw a glimpse of the true Lucas when he cradled her head and tried to calm her after administering the injection. There was honest affection and conflict in his face and in that one moment I saw a glimmer of the Lucas North I believed in. I refuse to believe the evil streak in him as his core.
The main problem I had with this whole story is that Lucas/John did this all for Maya. Seems to me to be a lame excuse for going on a killing spree. Maya had nothing to do with the formation of Lucas as we know him....she was in love with John! What a clich'e to have her die to make John feel the hopelessness of the whole situation. So the writer's lazy plotline shows evil John giving the Chinese the killer formula and good Lucas wishing for redemption before taking his lover's leap!
Very unsatisfying, sloppy, and predictable!
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - age1021 - 09-11-2010 11:47 PM
I really can't believe the writers did this to Lucas. Don't get me wrong, RA did a superb job( was crying when he was crying over maya), but really? Here was somebody who'd been through so much only to discover he is a "killer"? Then why did he risk his life for his country? He could have been evil during the whole nightingale incident...
They really really put me off with this entire character assassination debacle. So much so that i am not sure I even want to be bothered with series 10
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - BravoNine - 10-11-2010 07:35 AM
Makes me wonder, if the writers gave this kind of an exit for Lucas, and if the word about RA leaving Strike Back as well, will Strike Back end with just as a nonsensical storyline for John Porter's exit as Lucas's? Surely RA deserves better!
At least I can take in the comfort that Thorin Oakenfield will not be treated with such indignity in the Hobbit! Thank god!
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - HellsBells - 10-11-2010 02:44 PM
The Russian secret service look pretty stupid as well, after 8 years of torture, 4 of it in solitary, they never found out that Lucas North was a cover. Oleg Darsharvin 'knowing every inch of your mind'? yeah right. Obviously waterboarding and torture doesn't get results.