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+--- Thread: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. (/thread-1214.html)
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - Byatil - 23-11-2010 02:08 PM
(23-11-2010 01:54 PM)NightOwl Wrote: I think Maya was supposed to represent the road not taken. Had Lucas stayed with her years ago, he'd be a husband and father with a 9 to 5 job living the kind of conventional life most people have. He wouldn't have been imprisoned and tortured, wouldn't have had his heart broken by Elizabeta, wouldn't have seen his colleagues die. In retrospect, her photo awakens in him not love, but regret.
Of course, it's just another missed opportunity by the writers. It could have been interesting to see Lucas struggle with the idea that he could have had a different life. They could have explored what choices Lucas made and what choices were made for him. They still could have explored issues of identity and (self) deception. They still could have ended up in the same place with Lucas and Harry on the roof.
Honestly, I will never understand why the writers chose to make Lucas a terrorist who assumes a fake identity. Even without all the plot holes and inconsistencies with prior series, it just seems like an incredibly bad idea.
I understand what Maya was supposed to represent... she just wasn't developed as a believable character at all. I agree, a plot involving Lucas wanting to live an ordinary life would have been very interesting, and would have been 100x more realistic. Let's face it; the best stories are the ones the audience can empathise with and relate to.
I don't think I'm ever going to understand why the writers chose this script!
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - BravoNine - 23-11-2010 02:14 PM
(23-11-2010 02:08 PM)Byatil Wrote: I understand what Maya was supposed to represent... she just wasn't developed as a believable character at all. I agree, a plot involving Lucas wanting to live an ordinary life would have been very interesting, and would have been 100x more realistic. Let's face it; the best stories are the ones the audience can empathise with and relate to.
I don't think I'm ever going to understand why the writers chose this script!
Lucas wanting to live a normal life would have been a great storyline, especially after the sacrifices he has made for this and what he has been through, it would be have plausible and more than realistic for him to think about going back to a time when life was simple. I could have actually believed in that storyline.
If Lucas had risked everything to want a normal life, and he was afraid of the consequences he might suffer should they discovered that he lied about living a different life as John, I would have understood that. At least it would have been more plausible that John was his real identity and Lucas was another alias he made up when he ran away or something.
After the losses Lucas has suffered since his return with Ben, Connie, Jo, Ros, and then Malcolm's departure and how his old teammates from before Moscow have all died or left this job, it would have been more than realistic for Lucas to consider that maybe it was time for him to have a chance to get that normal life too.
Instead the writers took a storyline that made no sense and ruined a character who was good and loyal and turned everything he did into some twisted dark lies.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - Belle - 23-11-2010 02:23 PM
(23-11-2010 02:14 PM)BravoNine Wrote:(23-11-2010 02:08 PM)Byatil Wrote: I understand what Maya was supposed to represent... she just wasn't developed as a believable character at all. I agree, a plot involving Lucas wanting to live an ordinary life would have been very interesting, and would have been 100x more realistic. Let's face it; the best stories are the ones the audience can empathise with and relate to.
I don't think I'm ever going to understand why the writers chose this script!
Lucas wanting to live a normal life would have been a great storyline, especially after the sacrifices he has made for this and what he has been through, it would be have plausible and more than realistic for him to think about going back to a time when life was simple. I could have actually believed in that storyline.
If Lucas had risked everything to want a normal life, and he was afraid of the consequences he might suffer should they discovered that he lied about living a different life as John, I would have understood that. At least it would have been more plausible that John was his real identity and Lucas was another alias he made up when he ran away or something.
After the losses Lucas has suffered since his return with Ben, Connie, Jo, Ros, and then Malcolm's departure and how his old teammates from before Moscow have all died or left this job, it would have been more than realistic for Lucas to consider that maybe it was time for him to have a chance to get that normal life too.
Instead the writers took a storyline that made no sense and ruined a character who was good and loyal and turned everything he did into some twisted dark lies.
They could have made him leave in a simmilar way Tom left, he was fed up with the lies and the sacrifices he had to make to do his job.
Lucas could indeed be full of regret when he remembered the life he could have had, so it wouldn't be too unlogical if he wanted a 'normal' life, after all the suffering he had indured for his country, they at least could have given him that!
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - Byatil - 23-11-2010 04:25 PM
In 8.4, Lucas and Dasharvin use the aliases 'Wilde' and 'Grey'. I'm assuming these refer to Oscar Wilde, and perhaps the book "The Picture Of Dorian Grey"? Can anyone offer any further insight into this? I haven't read the book.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - BravoNine - 23-11-2010 04:35 PM
(23-11-2010 04:25 PM)Byatil Wrote: In 8.4, Lucas and Dasharvin use the aliases 'Wilde' and 'Grey'. I'm assuming these refer to Oscar Wilde, and perhaps the book "The Picture Of Dorian Grey"? Can anyone offer any further insight into this? I haven't read the book.
Yes, one of the messages was hidden in the Picture of Dorian Gray book if I remember correctly.
I read Dorian Gray years ago so I sort of forgot it, but I believe the story was about a painting was done of a young and beautiful Dorian but under the influence of a character Lord Henry, Dorian becomes more obsessed about keeping his youth and beauty so he curses his painting and pledging his soul so that his painting may bear the old age and infamy while allowing his real self to stay young forever. And if I remember it right, Dorian actually dies at the end of the story a disfigured and weak old man while his painting remains perfectly preserved of his beauty and youth.
Someone with a more sharper literary mind may have to take further insights into explaining how this relates in terms of Darsharvain and Lucas.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - Byatil - 23-11-2010 04:42 PM
(23-11-2010 04:35 PM)BravoNine Wrote:(23-11-2010 04:25 PM)Byatil Wrote: In 8.4, Lucas and Dasharvin use the aliases 'Wilde' and 'Grey'. I'm assuming these refer to Oscar Wilde, and perhaps the book "The Picture Of Dorian Grey"? Can anyone offer any further insight into this? I haven't read the book.
Yes, one of the messages was hidden in the Picture of Dorian Gray book if I remember correctly.
I read Dorian Gray years ago so I sort of forgot it, but I believe the story was about a painting was done of a young and beautiful Dorian but under the influence of a character Lord Henry, Dorian becomes more obsessed about keeping his youth and beauty so he curses his painting and pledging his soul so that his painting may bear the old age and infamy while allowing his real self to stay young forever. And if I remember it right, Dorian actually dies at the end of the story a disfigured and weak old man while his painting remains perfectly preserved of his beauty and youth.
Someone with a more sharper literary mind may have to take further insights into explaining how this relates in terms of Darsharvain and Lucas.
Yes it was, in Waterstones, the earpiece is hidden behind the book.
I do vaguely remember the story now that you've explained it, but I'm unsure as to how it relates to Lucas and Oleg's relationship
Dasharvin presents himself as the author of a book about a man who creates his own self-destruction in his bid to retain perfection, so it could be linked to Lucas' desire to have control over situations (mirroring Dorian's desire to have control over his appearance)? Whether the idea of Oleg relating to Wilde is meant to be of him as a man or as an author of the book is unclear.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - BravoNine - 23-11-2010 05:00 PM
(23-11-2010 04:42 PM)Byatil Wrote:(23-11-2010 04:35 PM)BravoNine Wrote:(23-11-2010 04:25 PM)Byatil Wrote: In 8.4, Lucas and Dasharvin use the aliases 'Wilde' and 'Grey'. I'm assuming these refer to Oscar Wilde, and perhaps the book "The Picture Of Dorian Grey"? Can anyone offer any further insight into this? I haven't read the book.
Yes, one of the messages was hidden in the Picture of Dorian Gray book if I remember correctly.
I read Dorian Gray years ago so I sort of forgot it, but I believe the story was about a painting was done of a young and beautiful Dorian but under the influence of a character Lord Henry, Dorian becomes more obsessed about keeping his youth and beauty so he curses his painting and pledging his soul so that his painting may bear the old age and infamy while allowing his real self to stay young forever. And if I remember it right, Dorian actually dies at the end of the story a disfigured and weak old man while his painting remains perfectly preserved of his beauty and youth.
Someone with a more sharper literary mind may have to take further insights into explaining how this relates in terms of Darsharvain and Lucas.
Yes it was, in Waterstones, the earpiece is hidden behind the book.
I do vaguely remember the story now that you've explained it, but I'm unsure as to how it relates to Lucas and Oleg's relationship
Dasharvin presents himself as the author of a book about a man who creates his own self-destruction in his bid to retain perfection, so it could be linked to Lucas' desire to have control over situations (mirroring Dorian's desire to have control over his appearance)? Whether the idea of Oleg relating to Wilde is meant to be of him as a man or as an author of the book is unclear.
Maybe it's meant to describe that Wilde created Dorian like Darsharvain created Lucas?
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - Byatil - 23-11-2010 06:43 PM
(23-11-2010 05:00 PM)BravoNine Wrote: Maybe it's meant to describe that Wilde created Dorian like Darsharvain created Lucas?
I just get the feeling it might be a bit more complicated than that, seeing as Dasharvin seems to have a love of literature - when him and Lucas meet for the first time in 8.4, he remarks "So, this is Dicken's country." So I'm assuming Wilde/Grey are used for a specific reason relating to the context of the author and book... I'm just not quite sure what, haha. I seem to remember Wilde being a fairly controversial figure in his time?
Wikipedia Wrote:The first version of The Picture of Dorian Gray was published as the lead story in the July 1890 edition of Lippincott's Monthly Magazine, along with five others. The story begins as Gray's portrait is being completed, and he talks with the libertine Lord Henry Wotton, who has a curious influence on him. When Gray, who has a "face like ivory and rose leaves" sees his finished portrait he breaks down, distraught that his beauty will fade, but the portrait stay beautiful, inadvertently making a faustian bargain. For Wilde, the purpose of art would guide life if beauty alone were its object. Thus Gray's portrait allows him to escape the corporeal ravages of his hedonism, (and Miss Prism mistakes a baby for a book in The Importance of Being Earnest), Wilde sought to juxtapose the beauty he saw in art onto daily life.
Is there some sort of connection there? Seems odd, unless Dasharvin was using Wilde's name ironically...
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - KitKat385 - 23-11-2010 08:07 PM
(23-11-2010 06:43 PM)Byatil Wrote: I just get the feeling it might be a bit more complicated than that, seeing as Dasharvin seems to have a love of literature - when him and Lucas meet for the first time in 8.4, he remarks "So, this is Dicken's country." So I'm assuming Wilde/Grey are used for a specific reason relating to the context of the author and book... I'm just not quite sure what, haha. I seem to remember Wilde being a fairly controversial figure in his time?
Wilde wasn't the norm for society back then, that's for sure. Wilde was outcast from society towards the end of his life, and from what I've researched, it's because he was imprisoned for a couple years on the charge of sodomy. Apparently Wilde had quite a few younger male lovers, and his wife refused to let him see their two sons.
I just read the book a few weeks ago, and to be honest, I'm struggling to see much of a connection. Dorian stays forever beautiful, and the hidden portrait transforms into this hideous creature because of all his misdeeds. This doesn't really seem like Lucas. But perhaps Dorian and Lord Henry's relationship is supposed to related to Lucas & Dasharvin? It's Henry's negative influence, emphasizing how beauty and "fulfillment of the senses" is more important than anything else, that leads to the novel's events. Maybe Dasharvin is exercising a negative influence over Lucas, leading to him going against orders, etc. etc....? Perhaps Harry and the other spooks could represent Basil, who tries to stop Dorian many times and warns him not to associate with Henry.
It's an interesting book to choose, that's for certain. It's mostly about a superficial society and total emphasis on beauty that leads to a young man's destruction.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - binkie - 23-11-2010 09:51 PM
(23-11-2010 04:25 PM)Byatil Wrote: In 8.4, Lucas and Dasharvin use the aliases 'Wilde' and 'Grey'. I'm assuming these refer to Oscar Wilde, and perhaps the book "The Picture Of Dorian Grey"? Can anyone offer any further insight into this? I haven't read the book.
For what it's worth, I think there are several things happening in this little knot of references.
1. Oleg tells Lucas to meet him at the White Cube. I don't know if you've ever seen or visited this gallery, but it is very aptly named. It's just another cell to put Lucas in, and demonstrates again how much this relationship is defined in terms of Oleg's choosing.
2. The image of Oscar Wilde is often invoked in modern literature and literary criticsm as an allusion to captivity. I think this serves an interesting purpose here. Oleg could have chosen any author, and we have been primed to expect him to choose someone English (Dickens, Trollope, etc.), but he chooses instead an Irishman who died young, ruined by his experience of prison.
3. The Picture of Dorian Gray is, essentially, a retelling of the story of Doctor Faustus, who made a deal with the devil in exchange for additional years of life. Oleg would, as Lucas' principal interrogator, have been fully aware that Lucas had agreed to spy for Russia upon his release from prison. It's easy to see how this could translate, both in Oleg's judgment and in Lucas' self-critical mind set, as a deal with the devil. It's an early example of Oleg's later insistence that he knows Lucas' mind.
I'm glad to see you are continuing with your analysis of this episode. It's a hard one to watch, but it's so important to an appreciation of Lucas' character and potential. I look forward to reading more from you on this when you have time
