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+--- Thread: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. (/thread-1214.html)
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - HellsBells - 11-01-2011 12:28 PM
But Lucas cared enough for Dimitri not to want to leave him on that ship in 9.1, and when he told Dimitri to 'go get a skin-full and start again in the morning' in 9.5 cleared showed he at least he felt for Dimitri and knew him well, although this wasn't shown on screen. There was clearly a gap of time between Ros's funeral, a few days after the bombing, to Lucas and Dimitri being on the container ship, time enough for them to get to know each other.
Lucas' relationship with Beth was never explored enough, clearly he didn't like her at first, but I think he changed his mind, otherwise why ask Harry to keep her on at the end of 9.2.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - BravoNine - 11-01-2011 01:32 PM
(11-01-2011 12:28 PM)HellsBells Wrote: But Lucas cared enough for Dimitri not to want to leave him on that ship in 9.1, and when he told Dimitri to 'go get a skin-full and start again in the morning' in 9.5 cleared showed he at least he felt for Dimitri and knew him well, although this wasn't shown on screen. There was clearly a gap of time between Ros's funeral, a few days after the bombing, to Lucas and Dimitri being on the container ship, time enough for them to get to know each other.
Lucas' relationship with Beth was never explored enough, clearly he didn't like her at first, but I think he changed his mind, otherwise why ask Harry to keep her on at the end of 9.2.
Lucas also made sure that Dimitri got out first with the information when they were breaking into the Chinese embassy. He risked his own life to serve as a distraction so Dimitri could get out, he didn't need to do that, so clearly he felt enough protectiveness to make sure Dimitri wasn't the one in the line of fire.
And whatever his relationship with Beth may be, he worried about her when the gunshots went off in the elevator in Episode 3, and he also didn't blow her brains out when they were pointing guns at each other in Episode 7.
Lucas may not be particularly close to the new recruits or to Tariq, he may seem to be aloof and not really having a close relationship, but he always made sure they were safe and out of harm's way.
Even when he kidnapped Ruth, if Lucas was a true evil monster, he could have easily just shot Tariq and take Ruth, but he choose to just punch him in the face to knock him aside.
Whatever crazy state Lucas was in, he still had the presence of mind to not harm his younger team members, even when he was firing shots at them, it was only warning shots. In the end he didn't even kill Harry for revenge either.
In the end, he still ended up putting his team's life above his own.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - Saerwen - 11-01-2011 03:35 PM
(11-01-2011 01:32 PM)BravoNine Wrote:(11-01-2011 12:28 PM)HellsBells Wrote: But Lucas cared enough for Dimitri not to want to leave him on that ship in 9.1, and when he told Dimitri to 'go get a skin-full and start again in the morning' in 9.5 cleared showed he at least he felt for Dimitri and knew him well, although this wasn't shown on screen. There was clearly a gap of time between Ros's funeral, a few days after the bombing, to Lucas and Dimitri being on the container ship, time enough for them to get to know each other.
Lucas' relationship with Beth was never explored enough, clearly he didn't like her at first, but I think he changed his mind, otherwise why ask Harry to keep her on at the end of 9.2.
Lucas also made sure that Dimitri got out first with the information when they were breaking into the Chinese embassy. He risked his own life to serve as a distraction so Dimitri could get out, he didn't need to do that, so clearly he felt enough protectiveness to make sure Dimitri wasn't the one in the line of fire.
And whatever his relationship with Beth may be, he worried about her when the gunshots went off in the elevator in Episode 3, and he also didn't blow her brains out when they were pointing guns at each other in Episode 7.
Lucas may not be particularly close to the new recruits or to Tariq, he may seem to be aloof and not really having a close relationship, but he always made sure they were safe and out of harm's way.
Even when he kidnapped Ruth, if Lucas was a true evil monster, he could have easily just shot Tariq and take Ruth, but he choose to just punch him in the face to knock him aside.
Whatever crazy state Lucas was in, he still had the presence of mind to not harm his younger team members, even when he was firing shots at them, it was only warning shots. In the end he didn't even kill Harry for revenge either.
In the end, he still ended up putting his team's life above his own.
I so agree with you on all that you have written, the only person Lucas was violent to was Vaughan and he should have done something about him earlier, and whose to say what was in the drip that he put into Ruth she could have just woken up when it ran out, the same way the bomb in the station wasn't live just a means to get Harry to where he wanted him,
it was either Dimitri, Beth or Alex who shot Maya and the same way with the running man it was the armed police who opened fire, so apart from the Hacker girl who could have bled out anyway, Lucas didn't have a bodies piling up around London.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - BravoNine - 11-01-2011 03:47 PM
(11-01-2011 03:35 PM)Saerwen Wrote: I so agree with you on all that you have written, the only person Lucas was violent to was Vaughan and he should have done something about him earlier, and whose to say what was in the drip that he put into Ruth she could have just woken up when it ran out, the same way the bomb in the station wasn't live just a means to get Harry to where he wanted him,
it was either Dimitri, Beth or Alex who shot Maya and the same way with the running man it was the armed police who opened fire, so apart from the Hacker girl who could have bled out anyway, Lucas didn't have a bodies piling up around London.
His actions did lead to some deaths, but he seems to have purposely avoided true harm to his team, as if he was going out of his way to make sure his team isn't in the line of fire.
Everyone else was rather fair game at that point, but not his team, he made sure they weren't the ones in harm's way. And you are right, we don't really know what he put in the drip, Ruth might have woken up either way, they never said if it truly was something harmful that she would have died from.
In my mind, the real Lucas who put loyalty to his team above all else was still in there fighting this evil John. The real Lucas was always in there fighting his way through to keep his team safe, and in the end, to save Harry too by making sure he (Lucas) himself can't go on hurting other people.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - HellsBells - 12-01-2011 02:25 PM
(11-01-2011 03:47 PM)BravoNine Wrote:(11-01-2011 03:35 PM)Saerwen Wrote: I so agree with you on all that you have written, the only person Lucas was violent to was Vaughan and he should have done something about him earlier, and whose to say what was in the drip that he put into Ruth she could have just woken up when it ran out, the same way the bomb in the station wasn't live just a means to get Harry to where he wanted him,
it was either Dimitri, Beth or Alex who shot Maya and the same way with the running man it was the armed police who opened fire, so apart from the Hacker girl who could have bled out anyway, Lucas didn't have a bodies piling up around London.
His actions did lead to some deaths, but he seems to have purposely avoided true harm to his team, as if he was going out of his way to make sure his team isn't in the line of fire.
Other than Daniella Ortiz (CIA hacker), who was dying any way, which other deaths did Lucas cause?
Why did the armed police shoot the man in the hoodie, surely that must have meant that Harry had issued a shoot on sight order. And the Team shot Maya when Lucas shot out the tyres on their car. Lucas was not using the lethal force that MI5 were using.
If we are suppose to believe that Lucas is the evil killer John, who bombed an embassy for fun, why was the bomb at London Bridge Station a fake? Surely John would have used a real bomb.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - BravoNine - 12-01-2011 02:51 PM
More evidence of the writers constantly contradicting themselves with their actions and dialogs!
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - binkie - 12-01-2011 10:59 PM
(10-01-2011 12:44 PM)HellsBells Wrote: I think this is really interesting, Jo and Lucas had so much in common but never really spoke to each other.
When Lucas speaks to Harry I think that maybe he is annoyed by the fact that Harry hadn't notice Jo's suffering, and is reflected by the fact that Harry seems to be oblivious to Lucas' own suffering.
Someone with a better memory than mine will be able to correct me, but I’m pretty sure the first interaction we see between Lucas and Jo is at the start of 7.3, when they are in the surveillance van. Lucas is very quick to pick up on her concern for Ben, although she does not at any stage in this scene make explicit mention of this concern (she does later, though, I think).
Although, as you say, Hellsbells, Jo and Lucas did not really work together often, seasons 7/8 were full of these little observations of the similarities in humanity between the two characters. One of my favourites of these is in 8.3, when Lucas and Jo are monitoring the increasingly tense situation in the panic room at the house where the Berndorf group are being held captive by Finn Lambert. Harry instructs Lucas to obtain information from Russian businessman Vadim Robinov at another location. Lucas’ reaction is very reminiscent of that of a child being told to see to homework or chores: “What, now?” The tone of confusion and reluctance suggests that Lucas has already concluded the situation in the panic room will escalate beyond the ability of Jo (outside the room) or Ros (inside the room) to influence it to a satisfactory conclusion. He is unhappy leaving Jo alone, even knowing that CO19 are on their way, because – at an entirely fundamental, intuitive level - he recognises the importance of human connections. In leaving Jo alone, he has to make himself remember the bigger picture: we can actually see and feel him doing this in the way he re-sets himself, closing his eyes and shaking his head before setting off for the driveway.
I think, for obvious reasons, Lucas sometimes has to remind himself that the world outside his immediate environment continues to exist. I think also, he has to be reminded that it is this world that informs his responsibility to his immediate environment, and the people in it. We occasionally see Jo in this same predicament (7.3 and 8.2 spring to mind). I like this parallel, and I like the understatement in the reasoning behind the presentation of it.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - HellsBells - 13-01-2011 02:32 PM
I loved that scene in 7.3 with Lucas and Jo in the surveillance van. You are absolutely right, binkie how quickly Lucas picks up on Jo's concern for Ben. If I remember correctly he initially tries to make light of the situation with the words 'we learn by doing' (sorry that may not be the exactly words) but then corrects himself and assures Jo that Ben will be fine and Lucas will look out for him, and Jo takes comfort from those words.
I always thought his initial statement of 'we learn by doing' rather harsh and uncharacteristic for Lucas and maybe an indication of the state of mind he had to adopt while in prison.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - binkie - 13-01-2011 11:28 PM
(13-01-2011 02:32 PM)HellsBells Wrote: I always thought his initial statement of 'we learn by doing' rather harsh and uncharacteristic for Lucas and maybe an indication of the state of mind he had to adopt while in prison.
Good point about the uncharacteristic feel of "We learn by doing" (and well remembered on the line!).
I think this was probably intentional on the part of the script and the performance. In part, it underlines absolutely your observation about an automatic response motivated by recent experience of a more severe environment. The way in which he moves quickly to soften the effect on Jo of what he has said also acts as a consolidation of the extent to which Lucas is a fast and intuitive learner. He may lament to Sarah in 8.4 that he hasn't been able to feel anything for a long time, but he nevertheless retains an acute emotional intelligence. He recognises the humanity in others, often identifying the character of their motivations before they are themselves able to articulate them. His responses to others, and his anticipation of their actions and conclusions, are often more disarming than confrontational. That's something else he shares with Jo.
RE: [spoilers] Lucas. Just Lucas. - Byatil - 14-01-2011 02:36 AM
"She needs to keep her mouth shut before she gets herself killed" - 8.2
Not entirely relevant to the discussion at hand, but when Jo is attempting to help Bibi Saparova, I remember thinking it was quite interesting that Lucas should give the above line in response. A nice little reference to his own experiences.
I also liked the fact that we saw Ros having to face the young woman in the drugs-house in Bethnal Green who had a striking resemblance to Jo; it really echoed the Lucas/Dasharvin plot-line as they were both faced with uncomfortable images from their past. Ros' reaction to Harry in 8.2 is also quite interesting as she strongly opposes the fact that he's liaising with the Tazbek's for oil - something quite reminiscent of Lucas' attitudes towards some of Harry's practices. "I must create my own system else be enslaved by another man's" et al.
Lucas' relationship with Sarah is something I'm keen to analyse in a bit more depth. I thought it was strange that he should so willingly accept her apology in 8.4 after finding out that she had been attempting to spy on him. They have a massive argument, yet as soon as she is taken hostage all is forgiven? Why is Lucas so quick to trust the people who hurt him? A symptom of Stockholm Syndrome? (as Harry might like to point out!)