Series 9 Episode 7 discussion

[Kirayuki]

(02-11-2010 12:01 AM)binkie Wrote:  But now I have another question! How did Harry know immediately that Malcolm mentioned he had "received a visit from Lucas I'm afraid" that it must have been about Albany? Up to this point, as far as I can recall, there has been no discussion of Albany either involving or in front of Harry. Of all the dodgy reasons that could have come to Harry's mind to explain evil!John's visit to the suburbs, why should it be Albany that suggested itself so readily? And why did Malcolm seem to agree that there ws such an inevitability about the visit being motivated by Albany? *is just frastratingly confused and really not liking it!*

It was when Malcom sad he was constantly on the move for three days by Harry's protocol that he figured it must be Albany. I assume Malcolm was set with the task of holding it and if anyone came knocking to follow that proceedure.

[clamp]

(01-11-2010 11:25 PM)binkie Wrote:  Hello! I am de-lurking to post this, and I'm almost certainly wrong (or clutching desperately at straws!): is it possible that Lucas in in fact the Albany file? I admit I have no well-thought-out theory to back this up. But it could be made to fit with the Chinese cell in 9.4 having the still-unexplained picture of him.

I think it's interesting that so much of John's backstory was told / suggested to him by Vaughan, even down to the chilling (and brilliant) part about being a killer waking up. There is possibly something here to underline the fact that Lucas really has not been in control of his own life for a very long time.

Feel free to destroy this mini-theory at will!

I think you are correct to be frank...
'but your invaluable to me....' Harry pierce
Its highly plausable.

[molecatcher]

(01-11-2010 11:47 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(01-11-2010 11:43 PM)molecatcher Wrote:  I'm afraid Lucas has been totally in control of his life up until the moment Vaughn popped up with that suitcase.

Damn to the depth whoever thought up of a "suitcase"!

*kicks suitcase again* This stupid suitcase ruined everything!!

I think now we can replace the term of a crazy person, instead of "basket-case", we should change it to "suitcase-case"

LOL Don't go hurting your toes!!

[binkie]

(02-11-2010 12:06 AM)clamp Wrote:  

(01-11-2010 11:25 PM)binkie Wrote:  Hello! I am de-lurking to post this, and I'm almost certainly wrong (or clutching desperately at straws!): is it possible that Lucas in in fact the Albany file? I admit I have no well-thought-out theory to back this up. But it could be made to fit with the Chinese cell in 9.4 having the still-unexplained picture of him.

I think it's interesting that so much of John's backstory was told / suggested to him by Vaughan, even down to the chilling (and brilliant) part about being a killer waking up. There is possibly something here to underline the fact that Lucas really has not been in control of his own life for a very long time.

Feel free to destroy this mini-theory at will!

I think you are correct to be frank...
'but your invaluable to me....' Harry pierce
Its highly plausable.

Thank you I know nobody watches Spooks for the high level of consistency on offer(!), but I do have a couple of problems with the idea that John could just get on with being Lucas simply because he had shared a bit of chit-chat over a *ahem* hand rolled cigarette.

Problem #1 really has to do with the common sense of killer!bomber!John being able to pass himself off, in a wide-ranging and rigorous interview with MI5 recruitment personnel trained to unpick psychological flaws, as someone who had already passed all the appropriate background checks. I can't imagine the final interview stage for the security service is as simple as turning up, confirming the name on your passport, and saying: "I've always wanted to be a spy."

Problem #2 relates to Lucas' survival in prison. I accept the superfically convincing argument that he tolerated what happend to to him as a kind of punishment for a different crime. However, I do not accept the idea that feckless, opportunistic John would have been capable of maintaining the persona of Lucas while someone as clever and manipulative as Oleg Darshavin got to "know every inch of [his] mind." I'm sure this can all be hand-waved. But I really hope it won't be.

Sorry if I'm posting this in the wrong place. Perhaps it belongs on the Lucas thread?

[BravoNine]

I swear I was crying by the end of this episode, Lucas is just breaking my heart!

These characters are like family to me, Lucas is like a big brother/uncle figure, watching him turning down this dark path, watching this John-persona coming out, it's like watching my brother turn into this evil monster. I never thought I'd see him turn into this person that I don't even recognize. I thought I knew him, all those moments alone, all those pain he suffered, all those times he protected his people and shown his loyalty, I love him so much and I put my heart and soul on the line with loving him, now it's like he's reached into my chest and tearing apart my heart. It hurts so much and I still can't believe it.

And I don't think I will ever believe it, even when this all ends, my mind will try to rationalize and accept things, but my heart never will.

I invested so much into Lucas, he's like family, and now I suppose to believe that everything I ever love and believe about him is just one gigantic fat lie? How are the writers expecting me to accept that?

[WhiteSwan]

(02-11-2010 12:23 AM)binkie Wrote:  Thank you I know nobody watches Spooks for the high level of consistency on offer(!), but I do have a couple of problems with the idea that John could just get on with being Lucas simply because he had shared a bit of chit-chat over a *ahem* hand rolled cigarette.

Problem #1 really has to do with the common sense of killer!bomber!John being able to pass himself off, in a wide-ranging and rigorous interview with MI5 recruitment personnel trained to unpick psychological flaws, as someone who had already passed all the appropriate background checks. I can't imagine the final interview stage for the security service is as simple as turning up, confirming the name on your passport, and saying: "I've always wanted to be a spy."

Problem #2 relates to Lucas' survival in prison. I accept the superfically convincing argument that he tolerated what happend to to him as a kind of punishment for a different crime. However, I do not accept the idea that feckless, opportunistic John would have been capable of maintaining the persona of Lucas while someone as clever and manipulative as Oleg Darshavin got to "know every inch of [his] mind." I'm sure this can all be hand-waved. But I really hope it won't be.

Sorry if I'm posting this in the wrong place. Perhaps it belongs on the Lucas thread?

You've just pointed out why I think series 9 might turn into a farce.

- It's a rather frightening thought that someone could just pose as someone else at MI5 (whom apparently no-one ever reported missing) and no-one finds out about that for 15 years.
But allright, it's a TV series, so we shouldn't be too specific about things like vetting processes.

- But how can the writers seriously believe that we would buy a story about someone really, really evil and without any kind of conscience joining MI5 and then being able to pretend to be honest, trustworthy and courageous for 15 years, including 8 years in a Russian prison. Come on, someone like "John" would have found a way to get out of there pretty fast! That idea about a young man being mislead or used and then trying to find atonement by working for MI5 and suffering - that's something I could have accepted and I actually found it rather interesting.
But at the moment the whole story just looks like something totally absurd.

[Tea Lady]

Did anyone think it a little odd that Harry put Lucas on the speaker phone at the end and let Malcolm listen in? Harry also didn't seem that surprised to see Malcolm I have to say. Perhaps it's just a write in, to keep Malcolm in the series a bit longer, but I would have thought that Harry would want to keep this business with Lucas a secret if possible and not have it discussed with an ex-member of MI5.

Also, why is Maya sticking with Lucas? Is she insane?

I also agree with others that say, I don't think Lucas knows what is a lie and what is the truth anymore. Will we ever get the real truth? Maybe not.

[BravoNine]

I'm gonna sit here and pout and cry and glare and then pout and cry and glare some more.

Lucas is having split personality issues, that's what I'm sticking to.

As of right now, there are still so many questions still needs to be answered, and this storyline right now with this sudden turn has got so many holes that it looks like a swiss cheese, it's got gigantic holes in it that I can probably drive a truck through!

I hope the writers have something spectacular twist in mind for this finale....

[NightOwl]

(02-11-2010 12:38 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  I swear I was crying by the end of this episode, Lucas is just breaking my heart!

These characters are like family to me, Lucas is like a big brother/uncle figure, watching him turning down this dark path, watching this John-persona coming out, it's like watching my brother turn into this evil monster. I never thought I'd see him turn into this person that I don't even recognize. I thought I knew him, all those moments alone, all those pain he suffered, all those times he protected his people and shown his loyalty, I love him so much and I put my heart and soul on the line with loving him, now it's like he's reached into my chest and tearing apart my heart. It hurts so much and I still can't believe it.

And I don't think I will ever believe it, even when this all ends, my mind will try to rationalize and accept things, but my heart never will.

I invested so much into Lucas, he's like family, and now I suppose to believe that everything I ever love and believe about him is just one gigantic fat lie? How are the writers expecting me to accept that?

That's my big complaint with this story. If nothing we've been told about Lucas is real, why should I believe that anything about any of the characters is real? In which case, why I should I care about them or be interested in them? The writers have sabotaged any development of other (including future) characters. It doesn't matter who Beth is or Dmitri or Tariq or anyone else. I'll never believe anything I "learn" about them. I'll never trust them so I'll never have any reason to be surprised by anything they do.

[BravoNine]

(02-11-2010 01:20 AM)NightOwl Wrote:  

(02-11-2010 12:38 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  I swear I was crying by the end of this episode, Lucas is just breaking my heart!

These characters are like family to me, Lucas is like a big brother/uncle figure, watching him turning down this dark path, watching this John-persona coming out, it's like watching my brother turn into this evil monster. I never thought I'd see him turn into this person that I don't even recognize. I thought I knew him, all those moments alone, all those pain he suffered, all those times he protected his people and shown his loyalty, I love him so much and I put my heart and soul on the line with loving him, now it's like he's reached into my chest and tearing apart my heart. It hurts so much and I still can't believe it.

And I don't think I will ever believe it, even when this all ends, my mind will try to rationalize and accept things, but my heart never will.

I invested so much into Lucas, he's like family, and now I suppose to believe that everything I ever love and believe about him is just one gigantic fat lie? How are the writers expecting me to accept that?

That's my big complaint with this story. If nothing we've been told about Lucas is real, why should I believe that anything about any of the characters is real? In which case, why I should I care about them or be interested in them? The writers have sabotaged any development of other (including future) characters. It doesn't matter who Beth is or Dmitri or Tariq or anyone else. I'll never believe anything I "learn" about them. I'll never trust them so I'll never have any reason to be surprised by anything they do.

Right now I'm just so heart-broken....I just wanna know why? I just simply don't understand!! Why the heck it has to be this way? How did he go from a man who gave up so much for his country to suddenly being this twisted hateful cold-blooded killer? Why? That's all I wanna know is why??? What happened to the regret, the shame, and the guilt that was always behind those blue eyes?? When did he throw all that away just to be a psychopath??? How am I suppose to believe that he's tricked everyone for 15 years?? How am I suppose to believe that he's so good of an actor that he's fooled everyone around him??? How am I suppose to believe that everything I ever saw him do and say is just one big fat lie after another?? I just don't understand!!!!

Am I suppose to believe that his heart-break and sadness at that teenage boy Dean's death was just all an act and that he's really just an evil bastard? Am I suppose to believe that his attempt to run back into the building to save Ros was just an act and that he never gave a damn? Am I suppose to believe that his willingness to take a bullet and still run around London as he's bleeding just to protect his team and save the city is all just an act and that he really is simply just a cold-blooded killer?

Maybe I'm naive, maybe I'm in denial, but how the hell am I suppose to believe that Lucas was stringing us around all along?

This is gonna ruin any of enjoyment of the last two series because every time I look at Lucas then, all there will be are just lies....

They've ruined everything and anything that was ever good about Lucas, if this is the route that's gonna keep on going, there is no saving this character, he will be completely destroyed and I might as well wasted the last two years of my life for nothing because apparently it was all just a lie.