Series 9 Episode 7 discussion

[BravoNine]

(02-11-2010 09:33 AM)KoiGal Wrote:  Bravo Nine - "Eight years because I stayed loyal to my country". We all though that was the UK. Looking unlikely now...

Honestly at this point, I don't know who Lucas/John is loyal to anymore, it could be UK, it could be China, it could be Russia, it could be the Easter Bunny for all I know!!!!

I don't know what's going on with him anymore, something is very messed up inside his head and it could just all be lies that he's spewing out to make himself feel better.

[KiKi]

Hi there

I'm de-lurking after last night's episode!

Whilst the plot was - as it often is - full of holes the size of a small African country, I was mesmerised the whole way through. The wonderfully tense and heartfelt conversation between Harry and Lucas in the conveniently empty underground warehouse (perhaps it's the one at the back of Ros' house?); the beautiful dialogue between Ruth and Harry and his analysis of her feelings; Dmitri's ever-increasing role, and the way he calls Ruth 'Evershed'; Iain Glen's brilliantly disturbing portrayal.

I also have to put in a word of defence for Ruth! I think it would be a fallacy to expect her to be the character she once was. She gave up her whole life - and her cats(!) - for Harry. She created a 'normal' life for herself, and given how she was once deemed to be 'a born Spook', that must have been so incredibly difficult for her. Because of her past, her boyfriend died, his son lost a dad and had his world turned upside down. And so now Ruth has realised more than ever that she is perhaps someone she doesn't want to be - but she has no choice, because it's who she is.

There was the comment from PF regarding the most unlikely / unexpected betrayal...I'm wondering if it's him? If he *does* give Albany to Lucas for Ruth's safety, to both prove to her that he wouldn't let her die, and because he loves her? And then Ruth is torn: she wants proof that they're not 'dead inside' but she also loathes betrayal. So what would she think of Harry if he did that?? She was angry at the choices he made about George and Nico, but made it clear last night that he would be wrong to save her. I think she's a very angry and very confused person right now. Poor Ruth.

But this could lead to a wonderful rooftop confrontation: Lucas pointing out to Harry that he betrayed his country with Albany for Ruth, just as he has done the same to protect the annoying Maya - whose relationship with Lucas has been so piecemeal, with no real love seen between them at all.

On the other hand...I remain UTTERLY unconvinced that Lucas *did* know about the bomb, or that he did kill the real Lucas North. We know that Vaughn is a manipulator of phenomenal standards, and that he is able to lie and betray with the best of them. I still think he planted that in Lucas' mind. When he told Lucas what 'really' happened, Lucas seemed confused, as if he didn't actually remember it.

However, I can no longer see a way out for Lucas, certainly not for him to remain with MI5 now. He can't go on the run (too Tom Quinn), and they all know where he is anyway. I think, sadly, this is the end for Lucas, hopefully giving up his life to redeem himself - it would be too awful to not have some redemption.

On the upside, if RA leaves (and I don't see how he can't), there is no way Ruth or Harry can die. The cast isn't strong enough or established enough at the moment to lose such critical characters. So at least some continuity.

Looking forward to next week with HUGE anticipation...!
KiKi

[Quill]

Bravo Nine, I was wondering about your reaction until I had a chance to watch the episode. Now I can only say:

[agent68]

(02-11-2010 09:33 AM)KoiGal Wrote:  Bravo Nine - "Eight years because I stayed loyal to my country". We all though that was the UK. Looking unlikely now...

But in 9.6 he did tell Danielle that he got his tatoos for serving Queen & country - that must be the UK then?

[quin]

I have watched Spooks from the first episode and thinks the Lucas character is one of the best there has been ,but I am finding it difficult to understand what the scriptwriters were thinking when they took Lucas down this path of self distruction. If indeed it is the end for Lucas, why on earth could'nt we have a believable conclusion ?.I am soooo going to miss RA .

[agent68]

(02-11-2010 09:48 AM)KiKi Wrote:  On the other hand...I remain UTTERLY unconvinced that Lucas *did* know about the bomb, or that he did kill the real Lucas North. We know that Vaughn is a manipulator of phenomenal standards, and that he is able to lie and betray with the best of them. I still think he planted that in Lucas' mind. When he told Lucas what 'really' happened, Lucas seemed confused, as if he didn't actually remember it.

When Lucas told Vaughn he had told Harry, Vaughn asked if Lucas had told everything and Lucas reiterated 'everything'. Then Vaughn offers a different version to which I think Lucas looks alarmed as if he wasn't aware of it.

[KiKi]

(02-11-2010 10:14 AM)agent68 Wrote:  

(02-11-2010 09:48 AM)KiKi Wrote:  On the other hand...I remain UTTERLY unconvinced that Lucas *did* know about the bomb, or that he did kill the real Lucas North. We know that Vaughn is a manipulator of phenomenal standards, and that he is able to lie and betray with the best of them. I still think he planted that in Lucas' mind. When he told Lucas what 'really' happened, Lucas seemed confused, as if he didn't actually remember it.

When Lucas told Vaughn he had told Harry, Vaughn asked if Lucas had told everything and Lucas reiterated 'everything'. Then Vaughn offers a different version to which I think Lucas looks alarmed as if he wasn't aware of it.

Yes - that's exactly what I mean. Lucas didn't seem to remember Vaughn's version, which is why I'm not convinced it's true. I think Lucas' original version that he told Harry may actually be the truth.

Or maybe there's another version waiting to be told.

It's all too much!

[theeyeshaveit]

(02-11-2010 10:14 AM)agent68 Wrote:  

(02-11-2010 09:48 AM)KiKi Wrote:  On the other hand...I remain UTTERLY unconvinced that Lucas *did* know about the bomb, or that he did kill the real Lucas North. We know that Vaughn is a manipulator of phenomenal standards, and that he is able to lie and betray with the best of them. I still think he planted that in Lucas' mind. When he told Lucas what 'really' happened, Lucas seemed confused, as if he didn't actually remember it.

When Lucas told Vaughn he had told Harry, Vaughn asked if Lucas had told everything and Lucas reiterated 'everything'. Then Vaughn offers a different version to which I think Lucas looks alarmed as if he wasn't aware of it.

I thought that was rather strange too and I kept thinking, how come he hasn't got time to have even a moment of lover's time with Maya, it can't be because they have to get out fast, because he stands there and listens to Vaughn for a couple of minutes.

[BravoNine]

(02-11-2010 09:51 AM)Quill Wrote:  Bravo Nine, I was wondering about your reaction until I had a chance to watch the episode. Now I can only say:

Oh don't be like me, I got so worried sick over Lucas that I actually became sick! Not the brightest move I've ever made in a lifetime.....

I do understand your despair my friend, to see our beloved Lucas turn into this monstrosity that is John is very chilling and heart-breaking!!

This is like the spy version of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hide!!!

(02-11-2010 10:48 AM)theeyeshaveit Wrote:  

(02-11-2010 10:14 AM)agent68 Wrote:  

(02-11-2010 09:48 AM)KiKi Wrote:  On the other hand...I remain UTTERLY unconvinced that Lucas *did* know about the bomb, or that he did kill the real Lucas North. We know that Vaughn is a manipulator of phenomenal standards, and that he is able to lie and betray with the best of them. I still think he planted that in Lucas' mind. When he told Lucas what 'really' happened, Lucas seemed confused, as if he didn't actually remember it.

When Lucas told Vaughn he had told Harry, Vaughn asked if Lucas had told everything and Lucas reiterated 'everything'. Then Vaughn offers a different version to which I think Lucas looks alarmed as if he wasn't aware of it.

I thought that was rather strange too and I kept thinking, how come he hasn't got time to have even a moment of lover's time with Maya, it can't be because they have to get out fast, because he stands there and listens to Vaughn for a couple of minutes.

I have the same feeling, I mean, normally Spooks writers don't miss off mark this much, when they show a scene, it's always there for a reason. So this sudden love-interest with Maya is just very weird, I mean, Lucas had a more "real" relationship with Sarah Caulfield than Maya!

And the fact that Lucas/John just looks alarmed/scared/confused at Vaughn's words at the end makes me wonder if everything we have been told up until this point has been a smokescreen!

Maybe Maya is more than just a simple love-interest, maybe she's more embroiled into this than we ever thought she was?

Maybe it will be Maya who gets onto that roof and shoots Lucas/John and double crosses him thereby revealing that she was the one pulling the strings all along? Maybe then Harry takes her down and realizes that Lucas was just a pawn used by so many people all along and saves him?

-----------------------------

Honestly, when I asked for a Lucas/Harry storyline, this is not what I had in mind!!! I was thinking more of happy moments and hugs!!!

[HellsBells]

I have to say I really hate this whole storyline with John/Lucas. Haven't the writers watched to previous two series ? Lucas was a good and loyal member of MI-5 for 15 years, then they suddenly decide it is a complete lie, I just find it so hard to believe.
I don't believe someone can live another's life with the same moral compass. If John is a cold, ruthless killer he could never live Lucas's life. I really think this is total character assassination, unless there is a huge twist in the storyline next week, perhaps John was working for MI-6. And why did John and Vaughn blow up the Embassy in Dakar ? I am so tempted not to watch next week's episode as it looks like the writers decide to destroy the Lucas character completely. Which really doesn't fit with the previous storylines, he gave Beth a second chance, saved the American president, he can't be bad !!

Liked the Ruth storyline, but really felt it should have been a whole episode to itself, it just seemed rushed and the plot rather under developed.