Series 9 Episode 7 discussion

[binkie]

So, trying desperately to distract myself from endlessly cyclical arguments about the salvagability of Lucas' identity, I have been thinking about some of the season threads which seemed to be reiterated in this episode:

1. Someone with greater nerve than me might have to watch again to check, but I'm pretty sure there was another mention of the chessboard / chess pieces concept which arose in 9.4. I can't recall who says it, but I think there is a line about all the pieces being in place

2. Malcolm's line about the visit he received being "from Lucas I'm afraid" is interestingly placed. Following this line, Malcolm and Harry surmise a relationship between the visit and Albany. When, moments later, Lucas calls, Harry puts the call on speaker, meaning Malcolm - who presumably is no longer in receipt of the security clearance he had when he was working on The Grid - can hear everything. There is a slightly sinister quality about Harry's note to Lucas that "you are inavaluable to me" coming right on top of the implication that Malcolm and Harry are both very aware that Albany is a matter of concern, and heightens the sense in which Lucas is a chess piece in a game of which he, alone of all the particpants, appears to be largely ignorant

3. There must surely be some comeback on the massive piece of foreshadowing that is Ruth's point about Harry being wrong to have decided already to choose to save her life... not to mention his line from 9.1 about no longer wishing to feel that he is covered in blood. We must accept that this is bound to be a tragic irony by the end of 9.8 on way or another

4. The interesting - and barely explored - parallel between Ruth and Lucas both being effectively back from the dead, and lost in the process, looks as though it could get some traction in 9.8

5. Beth's role as the personification of both second chance and faith were nicely played in the scene at the park. It would be interesting to see something come of this, even if it is only a background check on John Bateman

I have more, but I am done with rambling for now. I will try to impose some order on the rest of my suppositions about this episode in a future post. I have to do something to stop my brain going into freefall. I will be a basket case by 10:00 pm next Monday!

[WhiteSwan]

Somehow I think it's not worthwhile trying to come up with a lot of explanations - the writers wanted to give us something quite new and spectacular and that's what they did. Not caring about logic, consistency in character development, credibility and other minor issues. But so what, they've given us that fantastic, new, shocking development! It will make it impossible to enjoy watching series 7 and 8, but who cares! We all should be grateful! What's credibility compared to viewing figures! And the stupid audience will have forgotten about plausibility by the beginning of next season anyway. So hurray to the writers!

[Puppetmaster]

I agree with you White Swan - just as long as they keep Harry alive.

[BravoNine]

(02-11-2010 12:33 PM)Tea Lady Wrote:  If Lucas really was an evil killer as Vaughn revealed, why did Lucas spend all that time in prison in Russia? For a man of few scruples, even if he does have a duel personality, why didn't he just give the Russians what they wanted? If he killed Lucas North and showed no emotion about his death, why would you suddenly feel guilty and waste 8 years of your life locked in a cell?

That's what I question too! How do you live somebody else's life everyday and not have something remain behind, something that strikes deep into your soul? 8 years in a Russian jail cell is not some walk in the park, if John/Lucas was really this evil killer, then why the hell did he remain loyal all those years? We were never given any indication that Lucas/John betrayed any secrets, so if we take what the writers gave us, why would a cold-blooded killer who only cares about himself not make a deal and give everything?

And if he did give everything, surely the Russians would have taken out MI5 years ago with the info that Lucas/John can supply, they wouldn't wait or let the UK keep on bothering them in this spy business.

(02-11-2010 02:28 PM)A Cousin Wrote:  .
For me it came very close to "jumping the shark" as we say here is the US. The only thing keeping it from strapping on the water skis was the incredible acting from PF, RA and NW and the fact that I know that Spooks has to be indulgent every now and again to keep the characters moving forward - in whatever welcome or unwelcome direction that may be. They will get back to the business of the business again. By that I mean that Spooks usually does a better job of balancing the threat du jour with character development but this one was all character. The character stuff was fantastic this week. The threat du jour was extremely weak.

The only thing that's right now chaining me to this storyline is the wonderful acting given by the cast, this cast is the saving grace of this swiss-cheesed storyline. If they weren't nailing the performances out of the park, this storyline is just too extreme and strange for me to swallow. And I would call it "jumping the shark", but thank god these actors are just amazing in playing the characters that for that one hour, we forget this storyline is bordering on ridiculous and we get drawn into that world and we fear, laugh, and cry along with the characters.

(02-11-2010 02:34 PM)Elphie Wrote:  I like the cookie jar idea though. Can I also guard it please??

I MAY lend it to you for a short time....we'll have to see....

(02-11-2010 03:30 PM)lwhite53 Wrote:  I can't figure out the Lucas/Maya relationship -- he's apparently willing to destroy his life for her but we don't see any real love between them. She's a cipher -- there to move his story along but without any real history of her own, a two-dimensional character, at best. I find it very difficult to believe he's going to these lengths for her, as I don't see the proof of their supposed great love.

This is another issue for me. There is supposedly this great love, but I can't feel it. I felt more with Lucas/Elizabeta or even Lucas/Sarah, but this relationship is just stale, there is real chemistry except just kissing and declarations of this great supposed love.

Either the writers just didn't care enough to show that much or assumed that we would believe it, OR they wrote it like this for a specific reason and that there is more to Maya/Lucas than what we are led to believe.

(02-11-2010 03:30 PM)lwhite53 Wrote:  Outstanding acting in this ep by NW, PF, RA and IG. IG, in particular, finally got to show what a terrific actor he is. The "you're a killer . . . the dream is over now and the killer is awake" scene was absolutely phenomenal.

This cast is simply amazing. Their performances really drawn me into the episode. And they are the reason why this storyline is so emotional and heart-breaking for the fans, because they made us fall in love with the characters, and now these characters are suffering, so are we.

And IG was definitely brilliant in the scene with RA at the warehouse!

(02-11-2010 06:51 PM)Katja Wrote:  Or was he a good egg before he became a bad egg and then rebecame a good egg?

Oh no, this is like that 24 storyline again!! It's like in 24 where Tony Almeida was discovered to have been alive when everyone thought he was dead, then they thought he was a terrorist, then he was revealed to be a good guy, then a evil terrorist again, then a good guy, then a evil terrorist who was destroying the terrorists.....it just all got really confusing, we weren't sure if he was a double agent or a triple agent or a hexa-agent....it was all very strange....

This Lucas storyline is starting to feel that way.....

(02-11-2010 11:29 PM)binkie Wrote:  1. Someone with greater nerve than me might have to watch again to check, but I'm pretty sure there was another mention of the chessboard / chess pieces concept which arose in 9.4. I can't recall who says it, but I think there is a line about all the pieces being in place

Yeah there has been a lot of talk about the pieces are in place and the whole chessboard analogy, the Chinese guy in this episode even talked about knowing all the players in the game.

I'm wondering if the writers are subtly hinting at us what they're trying to do....

(02-11-2010 11:29 PM)binkie Wrote:  2. Malcolm's line about the visit he received being "from Lucas I'm afraid" is interestingly placed. Following this line, Malcolm and Harry surmise a relationship between the visit and Albany. When, moments later, Lucas calls, Harry puts the call on speaker, meaning Malcolm - who presumably is no longer in receipt of the security clearance he had when he was working on The Grid - can hear everything. There is a slightly sinister quality about Harry's note to Lucas that "you are inavaluable to me" coming right on top of the implication that Malcolm and Harry are both very aware that Albany is a matter of concern, and heightens the sense in which Lucas is a chess piece in a game of which he, alone of all the particpants, appears to be largely ignorant

That whole scene just gave me a whole fishy feeling....something just doesn't seem very right or genuine......the way Malcolm said "from Lucas, I'm afraid" seemed as if he knew that Lucas would come to him someday, as if this was planned.....and Harry didn't seem very shocked either.....

And if Harry is just using Lucas (causing all this torment) to further some plan of his, I will forever be disappointed in Harry, he may be more of a bastard than I could ever imagine. I would have to smack him A LOT.

I had always thought Harry genuinely cares about Lucas, but if that reveals to be not true and that Lucas is just a weapon to Harry, well, honestly I will be very sad and angry.

[NightOwl]

(02-11-2010 11:42 PM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  Somehow I think it's not worthwhile trying to come up with a lot of explanations - the writers wanted to give us something quite new and spectacular and that's what they did. Not caring about logic, consistency in character development, credibility and other minor issues. But so what, they've given us that fantastic, new, shocking development! It will make it impossible to enjoy watching series 7 and 8, but who cares! We all should be grateful! What's credibility compared to viewing figures! And the stupid audience will have forgotten about plausibility by the beginning of next season anyway. So hurray to the writers!

I'm seriously considering tossing my series 7 dvds in the trash because I can't see any point in watching them anymore. I can think of main characters on other shows I've watched who turn into people I don't recognize or like, but none of them have changed as quickly or abruptly as Lucas. And none of the reasons for the changes were the result of preposterous backstories.

[BravoNine]

(03-11-2010 01:13 AM)NightOwl Wrote:  

(02-11-2010 11:42 PM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  Somehow I think it's not worthwhile trying to come up with a lot of explanations - the writers wanted to give us something quite new and spectacular and that's what they did. Not caring about logic, consistency in character development, credibility and other minor issues. But so what, they've given us that fantastic, new, shocking development! It will make it impossible to enjoy watching series 7 and 8, but who cares! We all should be grateful! What's credibility compared to viewing figures! And the stupid audience will have forgotten about plausibility by the beginning of next season anyway. So hurray to the writers!

I'm seriously considering tossing my series 7 dvds in the trash because I can't see any point in watching them anymore. I can think of main characters on other shows I've watched who turn into people I don't recognize or like, but none of them have changed as quickly or abruptly as Lucas. And none of the reasons for the changes were the result of preposterous backstories.

I'm gonna give the writers a chance to explain it all to me with the final episode of this series, or maybe even the early episodes of Series 10 if there is a cliffhanger to be resolved. But if at the end of this Lucas storyline and nothing still makes sense. Then I will have to say I'm gonna just give up on Spooks.

It's hard to swallow watching a show when what I saw for the last 2 series has just been a lie.

[WhiteSwan]

(03-11-2010 01:13 AM)NightOwl Wrote:  

(02-11-2010 11:42 PM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  Somehow I think it's not worthwhile trying to come up with a lot of explanations - the writers wanted to give us something quite new and spectacular and that's what they did. Not caring about logic, consistency in character development, credibility and other minor issues. But so what, they've given us that fantastic, new, shocking development! It will make it impossible to enjoy watching series 7 and 8, but who cares! We all should be grateful! What's credibility compared to viewing figures! And the stupid audience will have forgotten about plausibility by the beginning of next season anyway. So hurray to the writers!

I'm seriously considering tossing my series 7 dvds in the trash because I can't see any point in watching them anymore. I can think of main characters on other shows I've watched who turn into people I don't recognize or like, but none of them have changed as quickly or abruptly as Lucas. And none of the reasons for the changes were the result of preposterous backstories.

Only recently I had bought the DVDs for seasons 1 to 6, but I will throw all of them away now. Why should I bother to waste a lot of time watching a programme that has proved to be as silly and as ridiculous as Spooks?

[BravoNine]

(03-11-2010 01:22 AM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  

(03-11-2010 01:13 AM)NightOwl Wrote:  

(02-11-2010 11:42 PM)WhiteSwan Wrote:  Somehow I think it's not worthwhile trying to come up with a lot of explanations - the writers wanted to give us something quite new and spectacular and that's what they did. Not caring about logic, consistency in character development, credibility and other minor issues. But so what, they've given us that fantastic, new, shocking development! It will make it impossible to enjoy watching series 7 and 8, but who cares! We all should be grateful! What's credibility compared to viewing figures! And the stupid audience will have forgotten about plausibility by the beginning of next season anyway. So hurray to the writers!

I'm seriously considering tossing my series 7 dvds in the trash because I can't see any point in watching them anymore. I can think of main characters on other shows I've watched who turn into people I don't recognize or like, but none of them have changed as quickly or abruptly as Lucas. And none of the reasons for the changes were the result of preposterous backstories.

Only recently I had bought the DVDs for seasons 1 to 6, but I will throw all of them away now. Why should I bother to waste a lot of time watching a programme that has proved to be as silly and as ridiculous as Spooks?

Ohhh you think you can send the DVDs to me?

Like I said, give the writers a chance to explain, this storyline isn't over yet so there's still a lot of ways things could change, and if anything, Spooks is good at bringing twists, they haven't turned in a storyline as ridiculous and full of holes as this one, so there has to be a reason why this is so weird......

So give them a chance to explain, maybe it will all make sense in the end.....and if it doesn't, I'll be the first person to support you in walking away from Spooks for good...

Although, can I still have the DVDs? I've been looking for them everywhere?

[Chocolatepony]

(01-11-2010 11:26 PM)redlyn Wrote:  I'm not ashamed to admit it - I cried with horror and disillusionment for the man I loved. When Lucas told his story I could still forgive him as being young and stupid and then redeeming himself through years of selfless service to his country. The comment about surviving the eight years of torture because he deserved it, floored me.

And then...

it turned out that he wasn't duped, that he really was aware of his actions. That made the delivery of the explanatory scene with Harry even more clever as he was making it up as he went. I'm already in mourning for the lovely man I thought I knew. It's all too awful for words.

But was he really making it up as he went? To me he listened to Vaughn's explanation of what happened with a look or distant memories suddenly being reawakened. And his delivery to Harry seemed pretty genuine. Reawakened is the key word! Interesting comment someone made that perhaps Albany = John/Lucas.

BravoNine, your signature is so apt: "I spent eight years in a Russian cell. Eight years because I stayed loyal to my country. I still chew it over, when I'm lying awake at 3am wondering was it worth it. But yes, it was. Because I look at you with all your brilliance, and all your treachery, and I see everything I've ever fought against."
~ Lucas North ~
What irony that Lucas/John should end up being so similar to Connie in his treachery.
Till next week ....and I've also got my hand firmly over that cookie jar!

[BravoNine]

(03-11-2010 02:52 AM)Chocolatepony Wrote:  Till next week ....and I've also got my hand firmly over that cookie jar!

Did I somehow start a Cookie-Jar movement? LOL!

One comment of me hiding Lucas in my cookie-jar and now everyone wants it!