Series 9 Episode 7 discussion

[Silktie]

(03-11-2010 12:39 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(02-11-2010 11:29 PM)binkie Wrote:  2. Malcolm's line about the visit he received being "from Lucas I'm afraid" is interestingly placed. Following this line, Malcolm and Harry surmise a relationship between the visit and Albany. When, moments later, Lucas calls, Harry puts the call on speaker, meaning Malcolm - who presumably is no longer in receipt of the security clearance he had when he was working on The Grid - can hear everything. There is a slightly sinister quality about Harry's note to Lucas that "you are inavaluable to me" coming right on top of the implication that Malcolm and Harry are both very aware that Albany is a matter of concern, and heightens the sense in which Lucas is a chess piece in a game of which he, alone of all the particpants, appears to be largely ignorant

That whole scene just gave me a whole fishy feeling....something just doesn't seem very right or genuine......the way Malcolm said "from Lucas, I'm afraid" seemed as if he knew that Lucas would come to him someday, as if this was planned.....and Harry didn't seem very shocked either.....

And if Harry is just using Lucas (causing all this torment) to further some plan of his, I will forever be disappointed in Harry, he may be more of a bastard than I could ever imagine. I would have to smack him A LOT.

I had always thought Harry genuinely cares about Lucas, but if that reveals to be not true and that Lucas is just a weapon to Harry, well, honestly I will be very sad and angry.

I read Malcolm's delivery as sadness, because with the protocol Harry set up with him, if anyone ever came asking for that file, it would indicate that person is a traitor. So in effect he's telling Harry that his favourite son is a traitor. And Harry probably guessed that it was about Albany because of Malcolm mentioning the protocol Harry had set up with him. And I thought Harry's delivery in his discussion to Lucas, about him needing him, was iffy because he was lying to Lucas. He knows there is no way he can offer Lucas a life on the Grid still, but he was trying to persuade him to come in and save them the trouble of hunting him down.

Was anyone else thinking, going by the expressions on their faces as Ruth came back on the Grid after her ordeal and the whole mess with Lucas, that Dimitri, Beth and Tariq are scouring the job ads in the paper every day? They must be wondering how they ended up working in this nuthouse.

[BravoNine]

(03-11-2010 05:34 AM)Silktie Wrote:  I read Malcolm's delivery as sadness, because with the protocol Harry set up with him, if anyone ever came asking for that file, it would indicate that person is a traitor. So in effect he's telling Harry that his favourite son is a traitor. And Harry probably guessed that it was about Albany because of Malcolm mentioning the protocol Harry had set up with him. And I thought Harry's delivery in his discussion to Lucas, about him needing him, was iffy because he was lying to Lucas. He knows there is no way he can offer Lucas a life on the Grid still, but he was trying to persuade him to come in and save them the trouble of hunting him down.

I agree that Harry's words to Lucas was definitely iffy because he knows, just like Lucas/John knows, that there is no turning back, he would never have the life he wants on the Grid.

But I still have this weird gut feeling about the Harry/Malcolm scene, something about it, the tone in their voices just didn't match up, something smelled fishy. I could be over-analyzing, but I could be right too. I guess we will know in the final episode.

(03-11-2010 05:34 AM)Silktie Wrote:  Was anyone else thinking, going by the expressions on their faces as Ruth came back on the Grid after her ordeal and the whole mess with Lucas, that Dimitri, Beth and Tariq are scouring the job ads in the paper every day? They must be wondering how they ended up working in this nuthouse.

Beth is probably shooting herself in the foot right now wondering why the hell she ever thought this job was a good idea and why she didn't run away screaming when she had the chance! LOL!

Tariq's probably like "thank god I don't go out"

Dimitri's probably still cheery and upbeat, considering he fights sharks for fun, I think he's already certifiably nuts!

Oh these three poor children....Mommy and Daddy are fighting and going out of their minds, and their big brother has turned into a psychopath....what a great dysfunctional family...

[JHyde]

(01-11-2010 11:41 PM)picard1109 Wrote:  afterward...yep, I understand that, too. She's still a bit of a wimp when getting slapped around, though!

I could not disagree more with this appraisal. Ruth was all guts and class last night, not just physically fighting tooth and nail but also in being blunt with Harry, sad though that truth was. Ros or Adam might have fought their way out sooner, but the courage she displayed in trying to get herself and Deery free was admirable. I can't see what was possibly wimpy about it. The funny noises she made while being chloroformed? Silly maybe, but not wimpy.

[berlin101]

I'm delurking with this post too...

Wow - there are so many holes that need to be filled and I hope they do.

My two cents:

I'm pretty sure Lucas/John was brainwashed/a sleeper, he probably is Albany and the suitcase was some kind of trigger. Maya's photo and all the other stuff in it...all triggers for different parts of John's past, implanted by...Vaughn?

Maya is probably an agent as well. In 15 years she hasn't found another guy to marry, but is in a relationship with Vaughn - of all men? He and Lucas/John are very different types, so this seems highly unlikely. And in order for the plot to work, Maya had to be easily detachable from her current partner. A happily married woman (with children maybe) probably wouldn't have wandered off with a guy she hasn't heard from in 15 years so easily...even if it is RA. We haven't really learned a lot about her, except for the photo and tapas bar story. And Lucas after 15 years (and a marriage to another woman) just remembers her by a photo and thinks "Ah, yes - Maya! Let's give up everything for her." That picture was a trigger as well, I tell you.
Maya must have been "planted" in order to keep John/Lucas in check and as leverage if needed.

[BravoNine]

(03-11-2010 09:16 AM)berlin101 Wrote:  I'm delurking with this post too...

Wow - there are so many holes that need to be filled and I hope they do.

My two cents:

I'm pretty sure Lucas/John was brainwashed/a sleeper, he probably is Albany and the suitcase was some kind of trigger. Maya's photo and all the other stuff in it...all triggers for different parts of John's past, implanted by...Vaughn?

Maya is probably an agent as well. In 15 years she hasn't found another guy to marry, but is in a relationship with Vaughn - of all men? He and Lucas/John are very different types, so this seems highly unlikely. And in order for the plot to work, Maya had to be easily detachable from her current partner. A happily married woman (with children maybe) probably wouldn't have wandered off with a guy she hasn't heard from in 15 years so easily...even if it is RA. We haven't really learned a lot about her, except for the photo and tapas bar story. And Lucas after 15 years (and a marriage to another woman) just remembers her by a photo and thinks "Ah, yes - Maya! Let's give up everything for her." That picture was a trigger as well, I tell you.
Maya must have been "planted" in order to keep John/Lucas in check and as leverage if needed.

I sure hope this is true, then at least this storyline can make some sense, because right now Maya and this great love between Lucas/Maya is just way too ridiculous!

And let's talk about Maya, one of the most useless characters I have ever seen, other than being the rope that Lucas is supposedly hanging himself with. Her character possess nothing that I find lovable. She is wimpy, and clearly exhibiting all signs of stupidity because of course anyone would totally just fall back in love suddenly with a man who abandoned you for 15 years, and then when this man starts running around with guns, you just do whatever he says. Unless Maya is dumber than a bag of rocks, oh wait, that would insulting rocks everywhere.....surely there has to be more to this character than just being a plot device for Lucas to go crazy for.

Maya has no personality at all, at least Elizabeta and even Sarah Caulfield had some history or passion with Lucas, Maya is like watching paint dry.....oh wait, it's worse than watching paint dry....

[berlin101]

I'm completely with you, BravoNine - Maya is so devoid of any character traits and backstory, it's suspicious.

And the brainwash/sleeper theory is the only one that makes any sense to me at this point.
The scenes where Lucas/John is clutching his head as if it is going to explode? Not only because his conflicted conscience, but maybe two personalities/pasts/... one of them trying to get the upper hand?
Harry has known Vaughn for a long time - why? Were they both orderer to guard a valuable asset -aka John/Lucas/Albany? Why doesn't Harry seem surprised with what is happening? Why does he let John/Lucas roam free if the only sensible thing to do would be to arrest him? No - instead he puts chains on Ruth for planting the bug in Lucas/Johns computer... Harry must be behind this or at least know all about this.

[theeyeshaveit]

I wasn't very happy when the writers shafted the Home Secretary in the first episode either, but he was a more incidental character and had left anyway so I just accepted they did it as the first case in a series going to be about a betrayal theme.

I always wondered why Harry felt the need to kill him and assumed it was to save him from facing whatever he faced.

Series speculation Spoiler: show

Now I am not so sure. That act by Harry was the first of some strange things he as said centred around the job and what it demands of people and the awful things they have to do to be successful. The thought occurs to me now too, that perhaps he had to kill the HS because if the HS went through whatever processes were facing him, including interrogation I presume, he might talk about something Harry did not want him to talk about.

[BravoNine]

(03-11-2010 10:29 AM)theeyeshaveit Wrote:  I wasn't very happy when the writers shafted the Home Secretary in the first episode either, but he was a more incidental character and had left anyway so I just accepted they did it as the first case in a series going to be about a betrayal theme.

I always wondered why Harry felt the need to kill him and assumed it was to save him from facing whatever he faced.

Series speculation Spoiler: show

Now I am not so sure. That act by Harry was the first of some strange things he as said centred around the job and what it demands of people and the awful things they have to do to be successful. The thought occurs to me now too, that perhaps he had to kill the HS because if the HS went through whatever processes were facing him, including interrogation I presume, he might talk about something Harry did not want him to talk about.

Harry has always said that "I will pursue with vengeance anyone who act against my people" so I don't think it is because of any nefarious reasons other than the fact that Nicholas Blake is the reason that Ros was killed in that bomb blast. Harry did the same thing to Arkardy Kachimov after Adam was killed.

I think it's just a case of Harry not allowing anyone to get away with hurting his team if he can seek that revenge. But then again, with the way these writers have been spewing out storylines this year, I wouldn't be shocked if Harry ends up being revealed as the puppet-master behind all this crazy stuff.

I also had an issue with why suddenly Blake was a bad guy, I mean, sure Blake was never always a goody-two-shoes character, but Harry always said that he was one of the few good politicians left and a good man, and now he's a part of Nightingale, which makes me wonder if they just did it for the shock value/storyline purposes rather than real character development. And that's the same parallel to Lucas/John with whom we have been shown for two series as a complex and ambiguous character who had both shades of light and dark but was ultimately loyal when it counted, but now suddenly we find out that those two years were just a bunch of lies and that he's really a psychopath.

Needless to say, the writers seem very into shock value this season.....

I guess the theme of this series is no one is who you think they are, so trust no one.......

[BoHenley]

Going back to Maya, the woman doesn't even SMILE at Lucas, there's no passion in her eyes, there's nothing. To be fair, maybe her better scenes have been cut, but the photo from the much-boasted-about-love-scene looks the clumsiest and most awkward scene in years - thank God they cut it! Yet he's almost frantic around her. Doesn't add up.

I've yet to read all the posts here (that's tomorrow's job), but does anyone else feel slightly CHEATED with this storyline? I think we should've had ONE CLUE somewhere that this was coming, even if it was one line in ep 7.1. If this was a novel, the author would've been creamed for this.

My favourite scene: Harry and Lucas in silhouette, Harry slamming his hand down and saying "DAMN YOU!" and Lucas flinches. Brilliant.

[Kirayuki]

I don't fell cheated at all. To be perfectly honest i never thought Lucas was squeaky clean. Not in the slightest. He has pretty much always been under some suspicion since series 7 so it's not all that surprising to me.