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lwhite53 · (This post was last modified: 28-02-2010 07:48 PM by lwhite53.)

I agree YFM. JJ has his own future in his hands at the end of the ep -- he did what no one expected and managed to escape with the laptop, and I think Tom has to respect JJ's decision as to what he wants for himself. Tom may disagree, but JJ is calling the shots.

(BTW, there's no commentary for this ep.)

**JHyde** · 28-02-2010, 08:38 PM

See, there's a dilemma here too. Ordinarily you'd say that Five should have stepped in for the kid, but because they'd treated him like an adult by sending him on the mission, they kind of had to respect what he wanted from them.

Grossly underpaid, although Tom made some move toward doing the right thing. He still got totally screwed though.

**Silktie** · 01-03-2010, 05:33 AM

(28-02-2010 06:27 PM)JHyde Wrote: I happen to agree with Zoe on this one too, although I do think Harry does try to protect people on his team. I don't care if she came across as bitchy - I liked that JJ had someone to advocate for him. I'm not being sentimental just because he was a kid, but rather because when they are, in part, a victim as well as a culprit, there should be someone there speaking on their behalf when they can't.

For me, this is as ruthless as Harry gets on the show. Mainly because it's about him saving his own neck and then putting a kid's on the line. It's interesting to think about at what age would it have been inappropriate for them to send JJ in there. 12? 10? Given the 'set of skills' (as Silktie so succinctly put it on the Harry thread) that JJ brings, you'd think that it wouldn't matter how young he was theoretically. It's about his judgement and perception that this moral argument is centred upon. To put it another way: at what point can you ask someone to put their life on the line for their country?

When I watched the episode first time round, this is exactly how I felt about it too. But there are some subtleties I only picked up on the rewatch. Harry's initial decision to use JJ had nothing to do with saving his own neck, as he did not know at that stage that the kid had those codes in his head. So his decision was purely based on finding someone to act as their clean skin. Harry was still, at that stage, going to confess to the DG that he lost the codes. It remains an incredibly ruthless decision, but at least it wasn't initially based on self interest.

A agree that it was altruistic of Denton to let MI5 have JJ, but this only came after he had been using his brother's skills for criminal purposes for goodness knows how long. I still think there was a healthy dose of self interest in that decision, as Denton did not want MI5 to look into his affairs too closely.

And I really don't know whether I buy JJ's decision to pass on the education at the end. This is a particularly intelligent kid who must have realised what a tremendous opportunity he was being offered, I just think most intelligent kids would have jumped at the chance.

Tea Lady · 01-03-2010, 09:32 AM

(01-03-2010 05:33 AM)Silktie Wrote: And I really don't know whether I buy JJ's decision to pass on the education at the end. This is a particularly intelligent kid who must have realised what a tremendous opportunity he was being offered, I just think most intelligent kids would have jumped at the chance.

I think I am with YFM on this one. There was no way that JJ would have fitted into the education system, at his age and with his "street ways". Imagine him just being slotted into a course at a Cambridge College. He would have been an outsider. He would have been treated as such and felt as such, and probably would have walked away from it within days.

**JHyde** · 01-03-2010, 11:21 AM

Silktie, I totally agree that Harry's self interest stopped at the water's edge, so to speak. It was more to speak of the moral implications of using JJ was the clean skin. Sorry, I should have been more clear. That was also what I was referring to with regards to the characterization thing, and that doesn't just apply to Harry.

lwhite53 · 01-03-2010, 03:04 PM

Actually, I never felt that Harry's decision to use JJ was motivated by self-interest; imo, he was always thinking about the success of the op. That being said, it was still the wrong decision, morally and legally. This is one situation in which the ends cannot justify the means, or those who use children as suicide bombers or soldiers or sweat shop workers all get a pass, too.

**JHyde** · 01-03-2010, 03:33 PM

That's exactly my trouble.

**Silktie** · 01-03-2010, 04:14 PM

(01-03-2010 09:32 AM)Tea Lady Wrote: I think I am with YFM on this one. There was no way that JJ would have fitted into the education system, at his age and with his "street ways". Imagine him just being slotted into a course at a Cambridge College. He would have been an outsider. He would have been treated as such and felt as such, and probably would have walked away from it within days.

True, but there is more than one way to get an education. Since MI5 owed JJ big time, I'm sure he could have gotten them to sponsor some or other tailor made education for him. What irks me is the fact that he wasn't even willing to give it a go, when many other kids would have given anything for that opportunity.

And I agree absolutely that using a 14 year old was a terrible thing to do, and that it cannot be justified. But then I ask myself whether I would have wanted the Chinese to have that weapon, and my answer to that is a very definite no as well. So I'm very happy that I wasn't in Harry's shoes, because if you're the one that has to make the decision between these two choices I'm not sure that it remains as clear-cut as it is for us standing on the sideline.

lwhite53 · 01-03-2010, 07:20 PM

There was a third choice, as the DGSE made clear -- kill the dude. That pretty much took care of the problem.

**Kazters** · 18-11-2010, 02:37 PM

i think zoe really feels for JJ in this ep either that or its an excuse to get back at harry but either way she is really angry from the get go.

there is no need for Christine in this ep it detracts from the plot but i can see why she was there to set up any relationship she is having with Tom.

They take advantage of JJ but i also think he knows what tom means when he says to him that he will be able to offer him a different life. JJ dosent want it, to him and to many people 1,500 is a lot of money..

i like this ep, but there are flaws but its still a very good ep. love ruth and harrys banter begining to show