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Plot-holes
16-03-2011, 06:00 PM
Post: #138
RE: Plot-holes
Okay, time to attempt another reply! I've spent the past couple of mind-numbingly dull hours at work mulling these questions over, so hopefully I can coherently explain exactly what I have a problem with.

(15-03-2011 10:49 PM)A Cousin Wrote:  Are there plot holes in S9 that you would have accepted at face value or been willing to overlook if there hadn't been so doggone many of them?
In a word; yes. I could have accepted slip ups like the fact that none of MI5's computers have encrypted passwords, or that Lucas was able to easily plant his access to the database on a colleague. I could also have accepted that Lucas had suddenly acquired superior-hacking skills, and a lot of contacts in London. Those kind of plot-holes aren't actually too major; but they become so when the rest of the plot is on the brink of falling apart. Once you notice the big holes, the little holes seem to stand out more than they perhaps should.

(15-03-2011 10:49 PM)A Cousin Wrote:  Is there one (or two) plot holes above all others that, if they hadn't done them or had explained them sufficiently, would have made the Lucas portion of S9 work for you?
  1. Maya
  2. John infiltrating MI5 as Lucas North
  3. The psychology behind Lucas-is-John


Those are the things I felt caused the biggest issues in S9. I think Maya was a completely unnecessary character; it would have made far more interesting viewing if Lucas had been forced to face up to Vaughn and Harry without the excuse of "doing things in the name of love", imo.

I can't accept that John would have gotten away with murder, and would have been able to assume the dead mans identity. If Vaughn had simply created a false identity for John (he had the contacts to make that happen, apparently) then John could have returned to England as "Lucas North", and everything would have been well and good on that front until Vaughn popped out of the woodwork to demand Albany or else reveal that John was involved in the Dakar embassy bombing. The murder of Lucas North seemed a tad unnecessary, when John could simply have assumed a completely false identity.

Finally, the psychology behind the "split-personality" was never properly explained. I would have liked to have seen some explanation for John's estrangement from his family (perhaps they might have disowned him when he became involved in the drugs market), as well as an explanation as to how he managed to masquerade as another man for 15 years. It would have worked a lot better (in my opinion) if John had completely believed he was Lucas. If he had suppressed his memories of John so much that he fully believed John was "dead", and that it was he, Lucas, who had murdered him. We could then have had some interesting scenes when Vaughn turned up. When referred to as John, we could expect Lucas-is-John to be confused and ask "Who is John?", until the magical suitcase turns up and catapults him into a series of flashbacks, causing him to begin to come to terms with the fact that he isn't who he thinks he is. We could have then had the slow, psychological break-down cumulating in suicide, without the angst of Maya and the unbelievability of his ability to "pretend to be someone else" for so long.

(15-03-2011 10:49 PM)A Cousin Wrote:  Accepting the idea of Lucas as an evil sociopath of epic proportions as a given, I am curious to find out what did work for you and/or how you would have fixed what didn't work for you to make it work for you.
To be fair, a lot of the plot would have made sense if it weren't for a few gaping errors. As I've said, my main issues were how the psychological break-down was handled in the first place, the relationship (or lack thereof) between Lucas-is-John and Maya, and the fact John managed to masquerade as another man for 15 years when he was working for the security services!
I think I've already explained how I think the plot could have worked better, but if you want me to elaborate then just ask Wink

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Messages In This Thread
Plot-holes - Byatil - 20-01-2011, 08:00 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Saerwen - 20-01-2011, 11:47 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Belle - 21-01-2011, 09:40 AM
RE: Plot-holes - Jackk14 - 18-04-2011, 11:46 PM
RE: Plot-holes - WhiteSwan - 19-04-2011, 10:05 AM
RE: Plot-holes - Jackk14 - 20-04-2011, 12:49 AM
RE: Plot-holes - WhiteSwan - 22-04-2011, 10:08 PM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 21-01-2011, 11:53 AM
RE: Plot-holes - xzibit_m - 21-01-2011, 03:13 PM
RE: Plot-holes - NightOwl - 21-01-2011, 06:20 PM
RE: Plot-holes - penfold - 22-01-2011, 03:37 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Tea Lady - 22-01-2011, 03:59 PM
RE: Plot-holes - NightOwl - 23-01-2011, 02:46 AM
RE: Plot-holes - penfold - 22-01-2011, 05:48 PM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 22-01-2011, 07:05 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Saerwen - 23-01-2011, 01:52 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 23-01-2011, 06:58 AM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 23-01-2011, 07:24 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 23-01-2011, 09:13 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 23-01-2011, 09:36 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 23-01-2011, 10:04 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 23-01-2011, 11:14 PM
RE: Plot-holes - George - 27-01-2011, 10:04 PM
RE: Plot-holes - WhiteSwan - 23-01-2011, 10:25 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BoHenley - 25-01-2011, 09:29 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 23-01-2011, 11:23 PM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 24-01-2011, 12:24 AM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 24-01-2011, 01:23 PM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 24-01-2011, 03:06 PM
RE: Plot-holes - LINDA - 24-01-2011, 05:15 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 24-01-2011, 05:36 PM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 25-01-2011, 12:27 AM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 25-01-2011, 01:18 AM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 25-01-2011, 01:39 AM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 25-01-2011, 02:00 AM
RE: Plot-holes - Nixie - 27-03-2011, 03:00 AM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 04-04-2011, 03:07 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Nixie - 04-04-2011, 11:56 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 25-01-2011, 02:30 AM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 25-01-2011, 12:45 PM
RE: Plot-holes - WhiteSwan - 26-01-2011, 12:25 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 26-01-2011, 12:30 AM
RE: Plot-holes - WhiteSwan - 26-01-2011, 12:36 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 26-01-2011, 12:50 AM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 26-01-2011, 12:55 AM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 26-01-2011, 12:19 PM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 26-01-2011, 12:33 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 26-01-2011, 12:45 PM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 26-01-2011, 01:05 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 26-01-2011, 01:24 PM
RE: Plot-holes - WhiteSwan - 26-01-2011, 02:38 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Saerwen - 26-01-2011, 01:09 AM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 26-01-2011, 01:55 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 26-01-2011, 03:27 AM
RE: Plot-holes - Saerwen - 26-01-2011, 02:47 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BoHenley - 26-01-2011, 03:28 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 26-01-2011, 03:39 AM
RE: Plot-holes - penfold - 26-01-2011, 08:50 AM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 26-01-2011, 11:37 AM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 26-01-2011, 02:29 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 26-01-2011, 02:31 PM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 26-01-2011, 02:38 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 26-01-2011, 08:18 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Saerwen - 26-01-2011, 09:39 PM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 27-01-2011, 02:40 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 27-01-2011, 03:53 PM
RE: Plot-holes - penfold - 28-01-2011, 09:14 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 28-01-2011, 09:36 AM
RE: Plot-holes - Saerwen - 27-01-2011, 10:42 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 27-01-2011, 10:57 PM
RE: Plot-holes - George - 28-01-2011, 04:16 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 28-01-2011, 04:28 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 28-01-2011, 05:02 PM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 28-01-2011, 07:53 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 28-01-2011, 09:57 PM
RE: Plot-holes - penfold - 28-01-2011, 09:57 AM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 28-01-2011, 12:00 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 28-01-2011, 10:57 PM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 28-01-2011, 11:15 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 28-01-2011, 11:16 PM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 28-01-2011, 11:42 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 28-01-2011, 11:43 PM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 29-01-2011, 12:53 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 29-01-2011, 01:02 AM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 29-01-2011, 01:05 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 29-01-2011, 01:07 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BoHenley - 29-01-2011, 07:08 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 29-01-2011, 07:12 AM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 03-03-2011, 12:55 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 03-03-2011, 12:58 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 03-03-2011, 01:13 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 03-03-2011, 01:16 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 03-03-2011, 01:22 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Saerwen - 03-03-2011, 02:11 PM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 03-03-2011, 02:50 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BoHenley - 03-03-2011, 07:13 PM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 04-03-2011, 02:15 PM
RE: Plot-holes - WhiteSwan - 04-03-2011, 11:55 PM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 05-03-2011, 12:04 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BoHenley - 04-03-2011, 09:03 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 04-03-2011, 09:17 PM
RE: Plot-holes - xRuthx - 07-03-2011, 05:47 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 07-03-2011, 05:53 AM
RE: Plot-holes - xRuthx - 07-03-2011, 06:15 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 07-03-2011, 06:25 AM
RE: Plot-holes - xRuthx - 07-03-2011, 06:32 AM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 07-03-2011, 11:21 AM
RE: Plot-holes - xRuthx - 07-03-2011, 11:58 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 07-03-2011, 07:13 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BoHenley - 07-03-2011, 10:15 AM
RE: Plot-holes - xRuthx - 08-03-2011, 10:05 PM
RE: Plot-holes - xRuthx - 07-03-2011, 10:24 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BoHenley - 07-03-2011, 07:48 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 13-03-2011, 05:29 PM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 13-03-2011, 05:53 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 13-03-2011, 06:13 PM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 13-03-2011, 06:41 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BoHenley - 13-03-2011, 10:09 PM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 13-03-2011, 10:28 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 13-03-2011, 10:59 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BoHenley - 14-03-2011, 12:14 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 14-03-2011, 01:49 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BoHenley - 14-03-2011, 02:36 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 14-03-2011, 03:27 AM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 14-03-2011, 02:40 PM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 14-03-2011, 05:06 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Belle - 14-03-2011, 04:20 PM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 15-03-2011, 02:09 PM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 15-03-2011, 10:19 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 15-03-2011, 10:28 PM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 15-03-2011, 10:33 PM
RE: Plot-holes - A Cousin - 15-03-2011, 10:49 PM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 15-03-2011, 10:58 PM
RE: Plot-holes - A Cousin - 16-03-2011, 02:39 PM
RE: Plot-holes - WhiteSwan - 15-03-2011, 11:55 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 16-03-2011 06:00 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 16-03-2011, 12:11 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 16-03-2011, 04:39 AM
RE: Plot-holes - penfold - 16-03-2011, 08:57 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 16-03-2011, 09:47 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BoHenley - 16-03-2011, 10:49 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 16-03-2011, 11:06 AM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 16-03-2011, 12:50 PM
RE: Plot-holes - NightOwl - 16-03-2011, 01:03 PM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 16-03-2011, 02:25 PM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 17-03-2011, 02:26 PM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 19-03-2011, 12:30 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BoHenley - 19-03-2011, 02:18 AM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 19-03-2011, 06:54 PM
RE: Plot-holes - xRuthx - 21-03-2011, 12:10 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BoHenley - 19-03-2011, 09:35 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 21-03-2011, 12:25 PM
RE: Plot-holes - penfold - 21-03-2011, 02:00 PM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 21-03-2011, 02:36 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 21-03-2011, 06:39 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 04-04-2011, 09:07 PM
RE: Plot-holes - xRuthx - 04-04-2011, 09:30 PM
RE: Plot-holes - binkie - 04-04-2011, 10:18 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 04-04-2011, 09:59 PM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 05-04-2011, 11:57 AM
RE: Plot-holes - molecatcher - 07-04-2011, 11:18 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 07-04-2011, 11:47 AM
RE: Plot-holes - NightOwl - 07-04-2011, 01:05 PM
RE: Plot-holes - molecatcher - 07-04-2011, 07:02 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 07-04-2011, 09:45 PM
RE: Plot-holes - molecatcher - 11-04-2011, 11:18 AM
RE: Plot-holes - xRuthx - 07-04-2011, 12:04 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 07-04-2011, 12:31 PM
RE: Plot-holes - xRuthx - 07-04-2011, 12:54 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Byatil - 07-04-2011, 12:59 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 07-04-2011, 01:00 PM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 07-04-2011, 01:43 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Silktie - 07-04-2011, 03:40 PM
RE: Plot-holes - xRuthx - 07-04-2011, 10:02 PM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 08-04-2011, 01:13 PM
RE: Plot-holes - penfold - 08-04-2011, 05:12 PM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 11-04-2011, 03:29 PM
RE: Plot-holes - molecatcher - 14-04-2011, 12:23 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 14-04-2011, 12:43 PM
RE: Plot-holes - A Cousin - 14-04-2011, 03:06 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 14-04-2011, 04:47 PM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 14-04-2011, 03:35 PM
RE: Plot-holes - BoHenley - 08-05-2011, 12:21 AM
RE: Plot-holes - BravoNine - 09-05-2011, 01:46 PM
RE: Plot-holes - HellsBells - 09-05-2011, 01:41 PM
RE: Plot-holes - Neraul - 01-02-2012, 04:10 AM
RE: Plot-holes - A Cousin - 01-02-2012, 03:01 PM
RE: Plot-holes - penfold - 01-02-2012, 03:16 PM

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