How did you feel about Season 9?

[BravoNine]

(14-11-2010 05:56 PM)femaleBertieWooster Wrote:  Vaughn released the killer and got a knife in the leg for his trouble.

Well, he deserved that knife in the leg!

Good thing Lucas got to him first, if it had been me, it would be worse! I've got quite a few new evil equipments such as flamethrowers, knives, shotguns, sickles, hatchets, and many other things that I wanted to try on Vaughn!

[HellsBells]

(14-11-2010 07:02 AM)Silktie Wrote:  It would not have helped Lucas to kill Vaughn earlier. We know that from the start the Chinese was aware of Lucas and Maya, and would simply have stepped into the void created by Vaughn's death and continue to blackmail him by threatening Maya.

This is an interesting point, but surely the Chinese only knew of Lucas because they had Vaughn under surveillance, as he mentions in 9.7 (not being allow to find the bugs). If Lucas had killed Vaughn early on the Chinese may not have made the connection.
Also Vaughn wouldn't have told the Chinese what he was using to blackmail Lucas because they may have cut him out of the deal. As it was, it was Lucas that approached the Chinese with a deal, not the other way round suggesting the Chinese did not know what to blackmail him with.

[BoHenley]

(10-11-2010 07:41 AM)JHyde Wrote:  Back on topic please.

There were 2 genuinely good episodes in this season: 1 and 6 and 7 wasn't far off. And there was a lot I liked about 3, 4 and 5.

But for me, the finale was truly terrible and the more I think about it, the more I hate it. Perhaps if we hadn't known Ruth was to be kidnapped, the suspense quotient would have been higher. But we did know.

The finale really soured the season for me. Ultimately, it definitely ranks down in the bottom 3 seasons in my book. Mostly because the Lucas storyline was so ludicrous after we had been trained to expect of the character. All his best lines from season 7 ring hollow now. It was just silly.

Thanks, JHyde. You - and others - have summed it up so well. The episodes/scenes where the team worked as a whole (especially 6) and Lucas took control as Team Leader were as good as Spooks has produced. WHY didn't they link Lucas's past with his KNOWN past (eg) in Russia? That could've gone so many ways AND been plausible.

Apart from that, superb acting by RA, PF and NW, and the new characters of Beth and Dimitri (and Alec?) are intriguing. Whatever my misgivings about the final of S9, it's still a fabulous show and I can't wait for the next series.

---

Most chilling moment: When Lucas goes after Malcolm. Why? At that point, you realise he IS bad.

[binkie]

Because it’s always nice to be nice, I choose to begin with a list of things I liked about season 9:

1. The integrity of the principal actors who, called upon to tell a largely poorly executed story as though it actually meant something, did an admirable job and managed to suggest a depth and texture in the work that was almost entirely absent from the logic in the construct (that was a pretty backdoor way of being nice!!)
2. Iain Glenn. Just because I always like Iain Glenn. I would possibly have included him in this list even if he hadn’t been in the show!
3. Benedict Wong, whose performance of a man who wasn’t what he thought he was should really have sufficed as a fill for this theme this season
4. Visually, the whole season was stunning. This show continues to display an outstanding appreciation of the relationship between form and function. There is more than one way to tell the same story, and Spooks has always made good use of signs and symbols
5. I actually did enjoy a lot of the thematic elements of this season, and some of the character work underpinning these was quite brilliant. I particularly liked the extra layers of awkwardness attaching to the fact that Harry places such a substantial portion of his perception of his own humanity in the increasingly uncertain moral certainty of someone else (Ruth) without ever stopping to think what this might mean for her. I do like the flaws in my flawed heroes to be characterised by logic and background detail!

And now, because it would be wrong to pretend they didn’t exist, a list of things I didn’t like about this season:

1. I really wasn’t terribly keen on the John/Lucas thing. Really, really, really not. At all. Even a little bit. I’ll just leave that there...
2. Logic, attention to detail, awareness of provenance, respect for source material and coherent plot/character points are fairly fundamental to a successful narrative. Thematic interest alone, no matter how well placed, is not enough to keep an audience oblivious to faults elsewhere
3. Beth and Dimitri: underwritten and making up the numbers. Absolutely not the fault of the actors, but if they had been part of the body count for this season, I would have been hard pressed to muster any interest in their demise. My problem is not with the characters themselves, but with the way they were so shamelessly used to service a nonsense storyline, which had no interest in them and no real need for them once their weekly plot-device moment had passed
4. For the first time in the history of the show, this season I was annoyed by the Harry/Ruth strand of the narrative. Season 9, for some reason, chose to showcase the fantastically complex relationship between these two people as a sort of frustrated grand romance, complete with uncharacteristic looks-of-longing and twiddly piano music. Again, this was hardly the fault of the actors, but it did stand out – in my opinion - as yet another example of this season’s curious failure satisfactorily to engage with or appreciate its own history

I most emphatically did not love this season of Spooks as a season of Spooks. Individual episodes were brilliant. I really enjoyed ep3 (though I may be in a small minority) and ep4. I thought ep6 was an outstanding example of using the same space to tell a story more than once (Lucas is shown, in his interaction with Danielle, almost entirely in pieces: hands, eyes, mouth. And is shown repeatedly in mirrors/reflections and unwanted encounters. I love this kind of stuff!). But as a piece in the jigsaw of the continuing development of the show, I thought season 9 was disappointing in so many ways I almost don’t know where to begin. I agree with HellsBells that “the writers just went for the WOW factor in a story that didn’t work.” There was a strong, credible, devastating story here that simply wasn’t told because the writers confused surface for substance.

In another post above, conniesachs wonders if enjoyment of seasons 7 and 8 needs to be sacrificed in light of season 9. My conclusion would be that I see no difficulty in doing with season 9 exactly what the season writers did with previous seasons: pick out the things you are prepared to accept and just ignore the rest. If this attitude suffices for the people creating the work, there should be no reason it cannot suffice for the people making use of the work. Respect is a reciprocal relationship, and I am feeling fairly excluded from it at this point.

[BravoNine]

I think binkie said exactly what I wanted to say! Nice!

I would just like add that perhaps one of the things that really pissed me off the most about Series 9 was how they turned what was Lucas's beautiful gift of ultimate sacrifice and loyalty for his country and his team into this dark twisted perverted sense of self-punishment and need for redemption. Now all his greatest moments and his greatest words from the previous 2 series rings hollow and untrue, where there was once deep meaning, now they are just simple meaningless excuses and lies.

[BoHenley]

Maybe I'd like Series 9 more if I forgot all about Series 7 and 8. Trouble is, I can't.

Great commentary again, Binkie. There were some terrific moments in S9, the Grid Lockdown, episode 6 with Danielle and Malcolm, episode 7 for The Knife, and others that I'll have to rewatch. I even liked the underlying theme of "lies" (who was telling the truth?) and several characters who weren't who they way they were (Benedict Wong, Vaughan, Lucas, even Beth to a point, maybe Alec?). Pity the over-arcing story wasn't given more thought - "...the WOW factor that didn't work" (thanks HellsBells).

Okay, it's Spooks, ultimately I did enjoy because it's quite simply brilliant British TV at its best. I just feel a little hollow at the way it ended.

[Silktie]

I'm apparently a less discerning viewer than most on here, because I truly enjoyed season 9. I thought as a piece of pure entertainment it was stellar, each episode drew me in and engaged me for the hour it was on. After many years of watching television, that doesn't happen too often, I can tell you. And for all the bashing the writers have taken over this season, I thought in general the dialogue was much better written and much less clunky than I found the dialogue in season 8. But it's the first time that we have seen some very relevant themes explored so thoroughly, such as the cost of the job on the personal lives of the officers. The last time this was really explored was way back with Tom.

Were there problems with the Lucas storyline? Certainly. Is it the first time this has happened in Spooks? Not in my view. I found the season 6 Ros storyline just as bad, and found the way Ros was so seamlessly integrated back into the team, and as Section Chief to boot, after her betrayals just as hard to believe as I found the Lucas storyline of this season.

[BravoNine]

(15-11-2010 10:13 AM)Silktie Wrote:  I'm apparently a less discerning viewer than most on here, because I truly enjoyed season 9. I thought as a piece of pure entertainment it was stellar, each episode drew me in and engaged me for the hour it was on. After many years of watching television, that doesn't happen too often, I can tell you. And for all the bashing the writers have taken over this season, I thought in general the dialogue was much better written and much less clunky than I found the dialogue in season 8. But it's the first time that we have seen some very relevant themes explored so thoroughly, such as the cost of the job on the personal lives of the officers. The last time this was really explored was way back with Tom.

Were there problems with the Lucas storyline? Certainly. Is it the first time this has happened in Spooks? Not in my view. I found the season 6 Ros storyline just as bad, and found the way Ros was so seamlessly integrated back into the team, and as Section Chief to boot, after her betrayals just as hard to believe as I found the Lucas storyline of this season.

I don't think anyone's saying that Series 9 wasn't a great piece of entertainment, because it was. It was heart-racing, emotionally draining, and enough to warrant it being a health-hazard. There is no doubt that production was kicked into its highest gear for this series and it shows. The acting was phenomenal and there were enough moments to give people heart-attacks.

It's true that every storyline has its problems no doubt about that, I mean, the fact that Ros and Lucas spent Series 8 running around London all by themselves after the bad guys was pretty ridiculous, but I could suspend my disbelief. Even Ros being accepted into the team was understandable despite some strange moments.

The issue with Lucas's storyline is not just little plot holes here and there, if it was, I wouldn't be having an issue, I'd understand that suspending a little disbelief here and there on a fictional show is needed. My issue with Lucas's storyline lies in the foundation of the story, a storyline that shatters every meaningful thing ever said in previous series and twisting its meanings to make something dark and evil out of them. There are so many contradicting and questioning points that much of the storyline is left unresolved and somehow the writers are expecting the viewers to fill in the gaps ourselves and make some sense out of it. Instead of reaching into a vast history and rich potential of Lucas's already stated background and leading it down a story of truth, lies, and betrayals, the writers just decided to make up something new, make every intelligence agency the laughing stock of the town because apparently John/Lucas outsmarted them all, and twist a character whose loyalty made him shine and turned it into something evil. And worst of all, centering it around a love interest who unfortunately does not hold up her end of the bargain.

I don't mind they made Lucas into a broken man or that they wanted him to exit in this way, I can see all that and I can accept it all. But they never gave clear reasons for why John what he did, apparently he just did it to be someone. He was a loyal man who gave up so much for his country and now turns around to betray it for a woman he hadn't thought about for 15 years.

This story is exciting, it's heart-breaking, but like a house with weak foundations, the logic that is holding this storyline up just doesn't track right or in a plausible way, it in turn effects the whole storyline.

And like many have said, there were so many ways this storyline could have gone where it would have made sense and be plausible, even if they wanted Lucas to exit the way he did or become this insane broken man. His already stated past is filled with good plausible reasons that I would have easily accepted. It just so happens that this storyline the writers cooked up, while exciting, only causes me to be confused and frustrated. And as a Lucas fan, it is sad to see a character with so much potential broken down and crushed by a storyline that doesn't make much sense.

[Kirayuki]

(15-11-2010 10:13 AM)Silktie Wrote:  I'm apparently a less discerning viewer than most on here, because I truly enjoyed season 9. I thought as a piece of pure entertainment it was stellar, each episode drew me in and engaged me for the hour it was on. After many years of watching television, that doesn't happen too often, I can tell you. And for all the bashing the writers have taken over this season, I thought in general the dialogue was much better written and much less clunky than I found the dialogue in season 8. But it's the first time that we have seen some very relevant themes explored so thoroughly, such as the cost of the job on the personal lives of the officers. The last time this was really explored was way back with Tom.

Were there problems with the Lucas storyline? Certainly. Is it the first time this has happened in Spooks? Not in my view. I found the season 6 Ros storyline just as bad, and found the way Ros was so seamlessly integrated back into the team, and as Section Chief to boot, after her betrayals just as hard to believe as I found the Lucas storyline of this season.

Thanks for this post. I've been wanting to say something positive in here about the series for a while but didn't know how to word it. You just hit the nail on the head.

[binkie]

(15-11-2010 04:53 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  I think binkie said exactly what I wanted to say! Nice!

I would just like add that perhaps one of the things that really pissed me off the most about Series 9 was how they turned what was Lucas's beautiful gift of ultimate sacrifice and loyalty for his country and his team into this dark twisted perverted sense of self-punishment and need for redemption. Now all his greatest moments and his greatest words from the previous 2 series rings hollow and untrue, where there was once deep meaning, now they are just simple meaningless excuses and lies.

I agree with you completely on this, BravoNine. Of all the nonsense that was contained in, and suggested by, the Lucas plotline, this was in many ways the worst. Not only is it a clear and wilfully ignorant denial of the purpose and imperative of Lucas' character and rhetorical function over the preceding seasons, it undoes such a lot of coherence of other plot and character beats from those seasons as well. It is something to unravel one character, quite another thing to do the same to other characters whose integrity and capability is now also called into question. This might not matter so much if these were peripheral characters, largely irrelevant to the internal workings of the show, but in this case they are not. We are supposed still to be able to appreciate characters like Harry, Malcolm, Ros, Adam, even Connie, whose every character and professional facet is now cast in a very questionable light.

There are also, as you suggest, deeply disturbing moral aspects to the conclusions drawn by season 9 in relation to Lucas' imprisonment and the value of that experience to both the character and the Service. One of the biggest problems I have with the way the writers of this season chose to present this strand lies in the area of responsibility. I would suggest there is a level of moral responsibility inherent in the use of certain plot devices for entertainment purposes, and the depiction of torture and its emotional and psychological consequences and context is absolutely deserving of this responsibility. I cannot stress enough the extent to which I feel season 9 denied and corrupted that responsibility.

I know a (to me, surprising) number of Spooks viewers never really took to Lucas, and were unconvinced by his backstory(!) and by RA's performance. I find this genuinely baffling. I found Lucas a fascinating and intriguing character, full of potential and nuance. I thought the performance of the character was outstanding. Every cognitive process, and suppression of process, was visible and painfully apparent.

Some years ago, I was in correspondence with someone who had been a POW at Changi. He was captured after the fall of Singapore in February 1942, and was interned by the Japanese until the summer of 1946. He worked on the Burma railway. His expression, his manner and his quality of humanity was very much like that of the Lucas we saw in seasons 7 and 8. I will post more on this in the Lucas thread, because it is worth underlining the quiet and subtle dramatic power of this performance. Here, though, I will just say that I agree with your disappointment at the way this element of Lucas' story was given a retrospective cast it ill-deserved. There is a vast moral distance between illuminating a hidden facet of a known, or communicated, story and overwriting the character of that story for selfish purposes. It seems to me that the writers of season 9 either did not appreciate, or did not care, about this difference.