[spoilers] Lucas and his tattoos

[Byatil]

(05-01-2011 10:29 PM)binkie Wrote:  I'm going to say this, because I'm still too cross not to point it out AGAIN: I know this is what season 9 wants us to conclude. But the writing didn't give us (or the story) enough to go on to make this a logical conclusion within the narrative. If only there had been more effort put into demonstrating how the cognitive sustenance of Lucas-is-John actually functioned, we would be better able to establish a logic for the tattoos across seasons 7/8/9. As it is, we can't reasonably do this, because we haven't the necessary character information. I can't believe how annoyed I still (still!) am that the show is under the impression that "because we say so" is a good enough execution of rehtorical responsibility. It isn't. It just isn't

Too right it isn't! It's intensely frustrating, because the tattoos were such an interesting part of Lucas' character. I somehow don't think we're ever going to get over this

(05-01-2011 10:29 PM)binkie Wrote:  

(05-01-2011 01:39 PM)Byatil Wrote:  ...he has learned to keep his mouth shut and not to give too much away, because as soon as he is void of information he is worthless.

Byatil, this is a brilliant turn of phrase. Can you expand on it? I'm really interested in your reading of this.

Hm, I refrained from expanding because I'm sure I've made the point before (but that may have been within my mind at 4 o'clock in the morning when I tend to sink into Spooks analysis to try and get to sleep!) but I'll work under the assumption that I didn't say anything

I was considering the fact that Lucas' 'worth' is based purely around what he knows, and how he handles this information. I'm assuming that if he had 'broken' under interrogation and told the Russians all his secrets, they would have killed him. He would no longer be a valuable asset (I doubt they'd bargain with him if he had given them what they wanted to know? This is pure speculation as I have no real idea of the inner-workings of espionage trade-offs).
Therefore, it becomes imperative that Lucas can handle information without giving anything (or too much) away. As you've mentioned before, he often covers his mouth when he's stressed - body language that implies that instinct to keep schtum. The tattoos are a necessity, so I wonder if he purposefully used imagery that not only sheltered him from 'interrogation' (from colleagues, friends, family) but also from revealing too much about himself. The images are carefully constructed to tell the intended recipient (if we assume that some of the tattoos were supposed to convey particular things to particular people, which I would say they do after seeing various characters interact differently with the tattoos, and the way Lucas purposefully shows Harry certain phrases in 7.1) what he wants them to know, but no more. If you watch the way Lucas' character 'comes to terms' with reality again, it's interesting to note that he never actually expresses himself to his colleagues. We understand the horrors of his torture through flashbacks, but these flashbacks are never fully revealed to the other characters. From my knowledge of S7, the most anyone gets out of Lucas is that he was very lonely in Russia, with "only [Katchimov for] company", that he can't sleep because he is plagued by nightmares, and that he blames Harry for what happened to him. And of course; the tattoos.
If we compare his experience to that of Jo's, it's actually quite interesting to see how differently they handle themselves. Jo resorts to frantic running; Lucas resorts to masquerading as a double-agent. They both eventually turn to their jobs as an escape from their own minds. Jo sees the man who raped her (his name escapes me) in random faces in the street; Lucas is literally plagued by the bad memory embodied in Dasharvin. Jo completely breaks down, often in public. Lucas has lapses in control. He refuses to break down.
Perhaps the tattoos are a form of resistance. They act as a barrier whilst telling the story he wants people to know. Whilst they are present, he doesn't need to explain himself. Whilst they are present, he is still worth something. The tattoos themselves contain information - his very skin is engraved with pieces of code. If he can successfully keep his secrets, get back to his 'old life', and be 'normal' again, he feels worthwhile. It's all about control, and the tattoos seem to be an integral part of that.

I seem to have rambled completely off-topic in places there, but I hope it still (somewhat?!) makes sense!

[HellsBells]

Interesting comparison between Jo and Lucas, Byatil. We see the emotional damaged done to Jo and the help she received to over come those problems. But in Lucas's case he appears to have been left alone to deal with things on his own, indeed it was Lucas that pointed the team towards Jo's need for help.
I have always believed that the codes within the tattoos were important either to Lucas (to help him remember specific events or thoughts) or to other prisoners with whom he made alliances with in prison.

[Byatil]

Perhaps he enjoys feeling emotionally superior to her? He has control whilst she doesn't; she needs help whilst he tries to convince himself that he can cope. Perhaps there's even a parallel in their deaths - Jo dies a hero, Lucas dies a traitor.

[binkie]

(05-01-2011 11:09 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Hm, I refrained from expanding because I'm sure I've made the point before (but that may have been within my mind at 4 o'clock in the morning when I tend to sink into Spooks analysis to try and get to sleep!) but I'll work under the assumption that I didn't say anything

Byatil, you are my SF crush Never assume that an idea you have at 4:00am is an invalid one! I hope you don't think I am not keeping track of what you say (I wish that sounded less creepily stalker-ish ). I realise you have discussed at some length the question of Lucas' sense of self-worth. I asked for your impressions because I thought you had, once again, made a genuinely insightful point that deserved more attention. I wonder if you appreciate how much you pack into a little sentence

(05-01-2011 11:09 PM)Byatil Wrote:  I was considering the fact that Lucas' 'worth' is based purely around what he knows, and how he handles this information.

This is a fine example of what I mean. You have absolutely hit on the terrible state of Lucas' self-regard in that it is defined so strongly on the basis of knowing that something is known, and on the unknown - assumed - value of a secret. To then connect this so seamlessly with the extent to which he has, by experience and necessity, re-cast himself as a secret in the context of what it is that has brought him to this state of mind is very impressive and shows intuitive insight.

(05-01-2011 11:09 PM)Byatil Wrote:  If you watch the way Lucas' character 'comes to terms' with reality again, it's interesting to note that he never actually expresses himself to his colleagues. We understand the horrors of his torture through flashbacks, but these flashbacks are never fully revealed to the other characters. From my knowledge of S7, the most anyone gets out of Lucas is that he was very lonely in Russia, with "only [Katchimov for] company", that he can't sleep because he is plagued by nightmares, and that he blames Harry for what happened to him. And of course; the tattoos.

I don't think I've seen this point mentioned anywhere on this board. Admittedly, none of the Spooks exactly excell at the touchy-feely-sharing thing. However, as HellsBells says, your comparison of the different responses to trauma expressed by Lucas and Jo is important. Jo wants to talk, but feels she shouldn't because it will suggest weakness and irrelevance. She almost talks to Ben; she almost talks to Connie; then Ros talks to her and her appreciation of the situation changes. When Ros tries to get Lucas to talk to her in 8.4 ("Tell me about Oleg Dasharvin"), he deflects her efforts with an annecdote about nineteenth-century literary appreciation. He talks, but he talks about something else inside the subject at hand. As you suggest, he controls his environment by controlling what is in it.

(05-01-2011 11:09 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Lucas has lapses in control. He refuses to break down.

I think this offers another possible opportunity to explore the difference between Jo and Lucas in relation to recent trauma. The script subjects Jo to the fate of having brought about the physical destruction of her tormentor (and the irritatingly bland character resolution that concludes all is well with her as a result of knowing this because once the tangible object is removed, so too is the real and residual emotional and psychological experience of having been transformed by that object). In the case of Lucas, though, the script chooses to keep the object of his torment present in the world, and to have him gain a measure of controlling ascendency over it by moral and practical means. In keeping Dasharvin alive, the script reinforces the extent to which Lucas triumphs by asserting and managing control over something which is practically outside his ability to influence it.

(05-01-2011 11:09 PM)Byatil Wrote:  It's all about control, and the tattoos seem to be an integral part of that.

I think Lucas has made them part of that because otherwise they would always be very much part of something else.

[Byatil]

(06-01-2011 10:23 PM)binkie Wrote:  Byatil, you are my SF crush Never assume that an idea you have at 4:00am is an invalid one! I hope you don't think I am not keeping track of what you say (I wish that sounded less creepily stalker-ish ). I realise you have discussed at some length the question of Lucas' sense of self-worth. I asked for your impressions because I thought you had, once again, made a genuinely insightful point that deserved more attention. I wonder if you appreciate how much you pack into a little sentence

Well, if we're being confessional... I have to admit that you're my SF-crush as well! A discussion with you is always a very welcome one, and I wholly appreciate being able to read your brilliant posts.

My 4am ramblings don't always lead to valid analysis, but sometimes it's easier to think things through when you're lying in the dark with nothing better to do. I was just worried that I might be repeating myself more than anything else. Haha, short sentences are my only vice! They're too tempting to use at times, my prose can become horribly over-crowded with them

(06-01-2011 10:23 PM)binkie Wrote:  I don't think I've seen this point mentioned anywhere on this board. Admittedly, none of the Spooks exactly excell at the touchy-feely-sharing thing. However, as HellsBells says, your comparison of the different responses to trauma expressed by Lucas and Jo is important. Jo wants to talk, but feels she shouldn't because it will suggest weakness and irrelevance. She almost talks to Ben; she almost talks to Connie; then Ros talks to her and her appreciation of the situation changes. When Ros tries to get Lucas to talk to her in 8.4 ("Tell me about Oleg Dasharvin"), he deflects her efforts with an annecdote about nineteenth-century literary appreciation. He talks, but he talks about something else inside the subject at hand. As you suggest, he controls his environment by controlling what is in it.

Indeed, it's interesting how Ros is the character Lucas seems 'closest' to at times, yet he still reveals very little to her. Even when he is in a relationship with Sarah he refuses to acknowledge that he has problems; the question "What are they doing to you?" remains unanswered, and he responds to other queries with cryptic jokes "What is it with you and Harry Pearce anyway?" - "Me and Harry? It's a sexual thing". He is only willing to give away enough information to satiate the other person's curiosity, whilst subtly hinting that he is unlikely to tell them anything else.

(06-01-2011 10:23 PM)binkie Wrote:  In keeping Dasharvin alive, the script reinforces the extent to which Lucas triumphs by asserting and managing control over something which is practically outside his ability to influence it.

Exactly Lucas is apparently unable to escape his mental anguish - the phrase "the prison is within his mind" comes to mind. He continues to torment himself for not being what he perceives to be 'normal', or 'good enough'. He has left prison, but prison has not left him. The tattoos are a visible reminder of that fact. Maybe he feels he will never be truly free unless he regains control over everything, and as you point out, whilst Dasharvin (and arguably Harry) is alive, he can never have full control of his situation.

[binkie]

(07-01-2011 12:33 AM)Byatil Wrote:  Haha, short sentences are my only vice! They're too tempting to use at times, my prose can become horribly over-crowded with them

Ah! Give it time...

(07-01-2011 12:33 AM)Byatil Wrote:  Indeed, it's interesting how Ros is the character Lucas seems 'closest' to at times, yet he still reveals very little to her.

Certainly, he never gets into a conversation with her about "what I did on my holidays", but he does reveal to her, before he does so to anyone else, that he is on very uncertain ground with Harry. As early as 7.3 he instigates, and presses, a line of discussion with Ros that calls into question Harry's trustworthiness and reliability as a moral leader. I think he recognises in Ros - as she recognises in him - someone who is uncomfortable surrendering conscious autonomy to a system, or to a representative of a system (Harry, in this case), especially where the system has failed to live up to its side of the bargain. Lucas and Ros do not chit-chat, but, in their way, they talk a lot, and they talk about incredibly personal concerns.

(07-01-2011 12:33 AM)Byatil Wrote:  He is only willing to give away enough information to satiate the other person's curiosity, whilst subtly hinting that he is unlikely to tell them anything else.

This is so near the knuckle it's down to the bone. What a brilliant description of Lucas' self-destructive internalisation! What has always seemed odd to me is the suggestion that Sarah - an intelligence operative herself - seems genuinely shocked and surprised to learn that Lucas was mistreated in prison. I think this says as much about her own selfishness as it does about his reluctance to carry on a conversation he believes the tattoos have as good as completed.

[Byatil]

(07-01-2011 11:30 PM)binkie Wrote:  Certainly, he never gets into a conversation with her about "what I did on my holidays", but he does reveal to her, before he does so to anyone else, that he is on very uncertain ground with Harry. As early as 7.3 he instigates, and presses, a line of discussion with Ros that calls into question Harry's trustworthiness and reliability as a moral leader. I think he recognises in Ros - as she recognises in him - someone who is uncomfortable surrendering conscious autonomy to a system, or to a representative of a system (Harry, in this case), especially where the system has failed to live up to its side of the bargain. Lucas and Ros do not chit-chat, but, in their way, they talk a lot, and they talk about incredibly personal concerns.

...and so we link nicely back to Blake

Yes, I thought Lucas and Ros had a fabulous rapport. I think the way Ros treats him in 8.4 is very telling; she tells Harry "I'll look after him". I suppose to an extent they must see elements of themselves in one another, and they do have some notable parallels in their characters. Ros never seemed to be one for small-talk, but I thought it was sweet when her and Lucas shared the "colleagues are okay" moment. They are both very lonely people, who both purposefully shut themselves off from relationships. I may have to watch out for developments in their relationship more closely, because it certainly is an interesting one.

(07-01-2011 11:30 PM)binkie Wrote:  This is so near the knuckle it's down to the bone. What a brilliant description of Lucas' self-destructive internalisation! What has always seemed odd to me is the suggestion that Sarah - an intelligence operative herself - seems genuinely shocked and surprised to learn that Lucas was mistreated in prison. I think this says as much about her own selfishness as it does about his reluctance to carry on a conversation he believes the tattoos have as good as completed.

Hm, well Sarah was an extraordinarily selfish person, and did prove herself to be a fairly incompetent officer! The way Dasharvin took her hostage was rather crude, you really would think she'd have noticed a man lurking in the back seat of her car. It does emphasise her totally self-obsessed persona, but I just can't believe someone would be so ignorant!

It's interesting that Sarah only ever seems to ask about Lucas' relationships with Harry and Oleg (or whoever she may assume Oleg to be). In fact, she doesn't seem very interested in Lucas' issues or past at all. She teases him for not being able to sleep and asks "what are they doing to you?" when she sees him in a state of distress, but if my memory serves me correctly, she never asks him anything else. She may well have read his files of course, but in a relationship... it does seem odd that she wouldn't question him a little. Although of course, Lucas probably would have enjoyed the fact that she treated him 'normally'.

Also, Sarah never asks about his tattoos, if I remember correctly. She traces the crucifix's on his back, but never asks him of their significance. I wonder if she already knows what they signify, or if she's simply not that interested?

[HellsBells]

I have always thought it odd that Sarah never asked about those tattoos. I think this is because the writers had not decided on the tattoos meanings, or were perhaps saving an explanation for a future episode. But this was repeated with Maya, again we do not see Maya ask Lucas about the tattoos even though Lucas stated he would tell Maya everything (okay he lied to her about everything as it turns out!).

[allanah]

(05-01-2011 10:29 PM)binkie Wrote:  If we compare his experience to that of Jo's, it's actually quite interesting to see how differently they handle themselves. Jo resorts to frantic running; Lucas resorts to masquerading as a double-agent. They both eventually turn to their jobs as an escape from their own minds. Jo sees the man who raped her (his name escapes me) in random faces in the street; Lucas is literally plagued by the bad memory embodied in Dasharvin. Jo completely breaks down, often in public. Lucas has lapses in control. He refuses to break down.
Perhaps the tattoos are a form of resistance. They act as a barrier whilst telling the story he wants people to know. Whilst they are present, he doesn't need to explain himself. Whilst they are present, he is still worth something. The tattoos themselves contain information - his very skin is engraved with pieces of code. If he can successfully keep his secrets, get back to his 'old life', and be 'normal' again, he feels worthwhile. It's all about control, and the tattoos seem to be an integral part of that.

I seem to have rambled completely off-topic in places there, but I hope it still (somewhat?!) makes sense!

I was always interested in the Lucas/ Jo dynamic and treatment in Series 7, because of the way they showed them reponding differently to their trauma.

I always thought that Jo stirred up in Lucas some emotions that made him uncomfortable when he interacted with her because in some ways her trauma and emotional problems were too close to home for him to be comfortable with. Why in series 7 in 7.5 when she drops the tray of drinks does he speak so harshly to her? My view is that her breakdown is very uncomfortable for him because he recognises that with his history he could go the same way. Again when he speaks to Harry afterwards about Jo being in trouble there is a lot of emotion there and I think it comes from the recognition that he and Jo have a lot in commmon and so in some ways there is an identification with her, even though its not an association he is comfortable with.

[binkie]

allanah, I think something weird has taken over the quote function. It wasn't me who made this observation about the relationship between Jo and Lucas. It was Byatil

This was certainly an interesting dynamic, worthy of further analysis (what you say about Lucas' behaviour in 7.5 is particularly intriguing), but should probably be discussed in the Lucas thread. Unless you can get the tattoos in somehow!