(15-11-2010 04:53 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  I think binkie said exactly what I wanted to say! Nice!

I would just like add that perhaps one of the things that really pissed me off the most about Series 9 was how they turned what was Lucas's beautiful gift of ultimate sacrifice and loyalty for his country and his team into this dark twisted perverted sense of self-punishment and need for redemption. Now all his greatest moments and his greatest words from the previous 2 series rings hollow and untrue, where there was once deep meaning, now they are just simple meaningless excuses and lies.

I totally agree with BravoNine and binkie. Binkie you write so well, I can't really compete. This defined Lucas's loyalty to his country but the writers tried to twist it into something evil.

Binkie and BravoNine, I wish I could describe the way I feel about season 9 as well and articulate as you both do, but saddly my English isn't good enough! Therefor I am glad you write exactly what I feel about this series and about the Character of Lucas North!
I do have enjoyed the individual episodes in terms of pace and excitement, the editing was well done IMO,
but I dispise the way the different characters were depicted, the total lack of backbone for some (Beth & Dmitri and Maya), the unbelievable twist in Lucas' personality, the equally unplausible storyline behind Lucas/John/vaughn and for me, but that's highly personal, the Ruth/Harry story begins to lean to much towards a soap. I don't blame the actors in any way for this, they did their best with what they were handed.
I do hope they(the writers) will redeem themselves and at least watch the previous 8 seasons of Spooks with an open mind and the intention to learn, before they start series 10!

I agree with you Silktie. It's my favorite season and I'm slowly coming around to letting the storyline be.

I would still like them to throw us a few bones in season 10 to round out Lucas' story. Maybe the writers overestimated our intelligence, considering what Binkie mentioned about Lucas' prison experience and how much is unknown about how it affects personality. Looking forward to Binkie's dissertation in the Lucas thread. (Are you an English teacher a philosopher or psychology prof Binkie?)

Also Silktie, I love the new picture of Harry you're using for an avatar.

Does anyone have a screenshot of Lucas walking in to get Malcolm? Chilling.

This certainly isn't my favorite season, I can let the story be, but it'll never be my favorite season. Mine will always be Series 7, when it was Lucas being true to his core and his loyalty showing in spades!

I don't think it's a case of the writers overestimating our intelligence. I don't need to be fed every information, but if you're gonna do a drastic change in character, then the foundation better be strong, and the problem was that it was weak and feeble. A wind could knock it over. Prison time can deeply effect someone, but clearly John/Lucas was mentally unstable even before he ever killed the real Lucas North, because let's admit it, who in their normal right minds decides to go bomb an embassy just because he got stuck on a foreign continent! That is not normal thinking!! Not to mention the illogical ways that John/Lucas got into MI5, making the CIA, MI5, FSB, and probably even the Chinese look like idiots since apparently no one ever found out he was John Bateman yet it took Beth under 5 seconds to find the real Lucas North.

Sure the writers had a great idea, but the execution was just very very flawed, confusing, and frankly didn't make much sense. If their goal was to make us feel Lucas's confusion, then they certainly achieved that because I was confused and befuddled by the end.....

(15-11-2010 12:13 PM)HellsBells Wrote:  

(15-11-2010 04:53 AM)BravoNine Wrote:  I think binkie said exactly what I wanted to say! Nice!

I would just like add that perhaps one of the things that really pissed me off the most about Series 9 was how they turned what was Lucas's beautiful gift of ultimate sacrifice and loyalty for his country and his team into this dark twisted perverted sense of self-punishment and need for redemption. Now all his greatest moments and his greatest words from the previous 2 series rings hollow and untrue, where there was once deep meaning, now they are just simple meaningless excuses and lies.

I totally agree with BravoNine and binkie. Binkie you write so well, I can't really compete. This defined Lucas's loyalty to his country but the writers tried to twist it into something evil.

Thank you, HellsBells, for the generous (if somewhat exaggerated!) compliment

I think the salient point in your post is that the writers of this season “tried to twist [Lucas’ loyalty] into something evil”. This is a really perceptive observation, because it absolutely exposes the question of whether this re-write worked on the level of enabling a valid reinterpretation of the character and his motives. I would argue that in fact it does not.

It is not enough for a writer, reinterpreting a pre-existing text, to point at that text and say: “X here means Y”, or “A is an indication of B”. If it was this simple, anyone with a reasonable grasp of cause and consequence could legitimately call themselves an academic analyst. A successful reinterpretation of any text stands or falls on the validity of the interpreter’s terms of reference, and the extent to which those chosen terms justify a new reading of the text. The prism of reinterpretation used by the writers/producers of season 9 to justify their reading of the text (the character of Lucas) is fatally flawed because it does not take account of the existing structure or purpose of that text in the wider community (the Spooks narrative).

What I’m trying to say is that, essentially, the writers of season 9 have pointed at Lucas and said: “This is John.” Having established this as their premise, what they should have done next is to return to the text and make a rigorous case in support of their claim. A textual reinterpretation of the type attempted by the writers of season 9 needed to have addressed the entirety of the text, not just those elements which best lend themselves to re-reading. At the same time, this textual reinterpretation needed to have been addressed in the context of its location and the circumstances of its operation. These areas, in my opinion, are where the writers failed as writers.

Effectively, the text of season 9 – Lucas-as-John – is sustainable only so far as the writers’ insistence that it is so, not because the text of seasons 7 and 8 – Lucas - can be successfully reinterpreted in that way. I will use the example of 8.4 as an illustration, because I think that episode is vital to the character of Lucas. I will use a very small element to make my point: the question of line placement. In this episode, once the identity of Oleg Darshavin has been established, there is much discussion, among the principal characters and within the narrative, of the matter of interrogation. Lucas uses that word, and so do Harry and Ros. Following Lucas’ meeting with Oleg at the Thames Estuary, and prior to Lucas going out to meet Oleg again in central London, Ros takes the time to characterise the relationship between the two men: “He tortured you for four years.” Lucas, insisting that he is “fine”, goes to attend the scheduled meeting. Ultimately, of course, the meeting takes place in Lucas’ flat, where Oleg tells him: “A reminder, Lucas. I supervised your interrogation for four years.” Lucas replies, as though the truth is only now occurring to him: “You tortured me.” Later, he will remember that, in effect, Oleg very nearly tortured him to death.

The occurrence of Lucas’ definitive line: “You tortured me” is crucial to the reading of the character as text. Lucas needs to be told what was done to him, needs to have it laid out for him in the barest terms, because otherwise he will never remember these events for what they were. What season 9 did was to take the idea that Lucas’ memory of his own past is imperfect because his past is so horrible, but divorce it from the context of what the experience of torture and imprisonment meant to the character once it came again to the forefront of his mind. Lucas, who needs to be more or less reminded of the reality of his relationship with Oleg, cannot successfully be reinterpreted as John, who accepted what that relationship meant because he was seeking punishment for some other crime.

Is Lucas a mask for John? Only if you believe the writers!

Wow, I've had to read that a couple of times but I think I get what you are saying. Love the interpretation you put on 8.4, going to have to watch that one again now (I have watched a lot before though!).

First post, so go gently with me please.
I think with regards to series 9, we have to treat Lucas/John as two totally separate characters. I personally felt from the start there was something very dark about Lucas. He seemed to me, to stick out at the time, from the rest of the cast. I can only explain it, like he was waiting to be found out at any time. There always seemed to be a secret, lurking in there somewhere. Perhaps just my gut feeling?. I also feel that it makes a great difference if the story was planned out years in advance, or merely morphed into the situation as it changes. I also think his entrance into MI5 at the time was on the whole, very plausible. You only see what you are looking for! and why would he not be Lucas, if nobody was interested that John had disappeared?. Intelligence has moved on at break neck pace in the past twenty years, if this programme aired in 1990, it would have looked like science fiction.

I also think it is reasonable to assume that Harry would mellow in his twilight years, he has seen the changes coming, now forced upon him. Personal life put on hold, for the greater good. I couldn't begin to imagine what a life like that would really entail. He has had to admire Ruth from afar, all these years, a thoroughly British romance. Through sacrifice and loss, it's human nature not to want to die alone. Also a fear that if they did come together, all could so easily be lost, in the blink of an eye, due to the nature of their world.

In short, I think the writers are showing a true reflection of the way the Grid would have to function today. There are flaws and mistakes in all walks of life, and we hope not so many, in our security services, but they are there. In a world without trust, where trust is the thing that could keep you alive, or cause your demise, we would hope the powers in charge are beyond reproach.
Question everything, accept nothing is straight forward, not the best way to live your life. Cracks will appear in all but the very strong, or those already lost.

(16-11-2010 03:58 PM)jimc Wrote:  Cracks will appear in all but the very strong, or those already lost.

That's good thinking.

Loved this season - as with previous seasons I love the way the writers are able to keep the story lines current by switching the enemy. Also loved the Lucas twist - whilst I had come to see Lucas as a loyal member of the team there was always something mysterious about him for me, this really helped me to buy in to the twist.

(16-11-2010 03:58 PM)jimc Wrote:  Cracks will appear in all but the very strong, or those already lost.

Or in a storyline that has so many holes it looked like a swiss cheese or the grand canyon....