(29-11-2010 10:20 PM)Kirayuki Wrote:  Ah, okay. I'll give you that one.

Maybe John didn't know Lucas was registered with the gym?

Well...like I said, he sure did a silly job, he was bound to be caught, I should slap him silly for being so careless...

(29-11-2010 10:43 PM)binkie Wrote:  What bothers me most about that line - and this really is a plot hole - is the extent to which it shows up, yet again, the paucity of logical thought that went into the construct of the Lucas-is-John storyline. Yes, we're back to that...

The underlying thread of explanation for this plotline relies on an acceptance of Lucas' memory as an unreliable and compromised thing. Effectively, he has to be reminded that he is John (feel my pain as I type those ridiculous words), and he has to prompt himself to recall all those pieces of John's life - including Maya - as they are contained in the briefcase of doom. Vaughan has to tell John that he is a conscious and knowing killer, that's how bad John's memory is of himself.

Even if we hand wave the total lack of continuity with established information regarding the role of memory in the characterisation of Lucas, there is still an almighty problem attached to this device in the internal politics of season 9: If Lucas cannot remember that he is John, what is there for him to be careful about? Even if he is referring to a general carefulness, undertaken in the early days of his deception (and I may have to bleach my brain after posting this), that line to Ruth places her absolutely at the centre of fear of discovery. I ask again: a discovery of what? Applying the so-hidden-he-is-hidden-even-from-Lucas logic of John's place in a deep dark hole in the deep dark middle of Lucas' apparently impenetrable memory of personal identity, surely there can be no awareness of anything waiting to be discovered, or needing to be hidden.

And then there's the issue of identity under torture, which is a whole other web of nastiness indulged in by the moral logic of this season. But that's a much further extension of the point made by WhiteSwan, so I'll stop before I get stuck in rant mode.

This is my brain's reaction to Binkie's analysis =

so...Binkie, would you like to write my research paper for me because clearly your brain is functioning on a much better level than mine is right now LOL

(29-11-2010 10:49 PM)BravoNine Wrote:  

(29-11-2010 10:20 PM)Kirayuki Wrote:  Ah, okay. I'll give you that one.

Maybe John didn't know Lucas was registered with the gym?

Well...like I said, he sure did a silly job, he was bound to be caught, I should slap him silly for being so careless...

(29-11-2010 10:43 PM)binkie Wrote:  What bothers me most about that line - and this really is a plot hole - is the extent to which it shows up, yet again, the paucity of logical thought that went into the construct of the Lucas-is-John storyline. Yes, we're back to that...

The underlying thread of explanation for this plotline relies on an acceptance of Lucas' memory as an unreliable and compromised thing. Effectively, he has to be reminded that he is John (feel my pain as I type those ridiculous words), and he has to prompt himself to recall all those pieces of John's life - including Maya - as they are contained in the briefcase of doom. Vaughan has to tell John that he is a conscious and knowing killer, that's how bad John's memory is of himself.

Even if we hand wave the total lack of continuity with established information regarding the role of memory in the characterisation of Lucas, there is still an almighty problem attached to this device in the internal politics of season 9: If Lucas cannot remember that he is John, what is there for him to be careful about? Even if he is referring to a general carefulness, undertaken in the early days of his deception (and I may have to bleach my brain after posting this), that line to Ruth places her absolutely at the centre of fear of discovery. I ask again: a discovery of what? Applying the so-hidden-he-is-hidden-even-from-Lucas logic of John's place in a deep dark hole in the deep dark middle of Lucas' apparently impenetrable memory of personal identity, surely there can be no awareness of anything waiting to be discovered, or needing to be hidden.

And then there's the issue of identity under torture, which is a whole other web of nastiness indulged in by the moral logic of this season. But that's a much further extension of the point made by WhiteSwan, so I'll stop before I get stuck in rant mode.

This is my brain's reaction to Binkie's analysis =

so...Binkie, would you like to write my research paper for me because clearly your brain is functioning on a much better level than mine is right now LOL

Ha! I love that smiley I'm afraid that plot hole analysis may represent the last moments of brain function for me today. Good luck with your paper. If your commitment to your subject is anything like your commitment to this forum, I can only assume you will be bringing the WOW factor

(29-11-2010 10:43 PM)binkie Wrote:  Even if we hand wave the total lack of continuity with established information regarding the role of memory in the characterisation of Lucas, there is still an almighty problem attached to this device in the internal politics of season 9: If Lucas cannot remember that he is John, what is there for him to be careful about? Even if he is referring to a general carefulness, undertaken in the early days of his deception (and I may have to bleach my brain after posting this), that line to Ruth places her absolutely at the centre of fear of discovery. I ask again: a discovery of what? Applying the so-hidden-he-is-hidden-even-from-Lucas logic of John's place in a deep dark hole in the deep dark middle of Lucas' apparently impenetrable memory of personal identity, surely there can be no awareness of anything waiting to be discovered, or needing to be hidden..

That one did shout at me... I think it again depends on whether you can view Lucas and John as two separate people.

It may be John saying that he was so careful not to be discovered by Lucas, as well as by anyone else. (Ruth does at one point start saying that she wants to speak to Lucas...)

In this case, Lucas isn't the one being careful until about mid-way series 9 when he starts to do bad things and knows he can get caught for them. He manages to cover his tracks in terms of mysterious phone calls and loitering to an extent, which is really all he could see himself needing to o until John became more apparent.

(I hope this makes sense and it's not just waffle. I'm trying to work at the same time here. )

(29-11-2010 11:03 PM)Kirayuki Wrote:  

(29-11-2010 10:43 PM)binkie Wrote:  Even if we hand wave the total lack of continuity with established information regarding the role of memory in the characterisation of Lucas, there is still an almighty problem attached to this device in the internal politics of season 9: If Lucas cannot remember that he is John, what is there for him to be careful about? Even if he is referring to a general carefulness, undertaken in the early days of his deception (and I may have to bleach my brain after posting this), that line to Ruth places her absolutely at the centre of fear of discovery. I ask again: a discovery of what? Applying the so-hidden-he-is-hidden-even-from-Lucas logic of John's place in a deep dark hole in the deep dark middle of Lucas' apparently impenetrable memory of personal identity, surely there can be no awareness of anything waiting to be discovered, or needing to be hidden..

That one did shout at me... I think it again depends on whether you can view Lucas and John as two separate people.

It may be John saying that he was so careful not to be discovered by Lucas, as well as by anyone else. (Ruth does at one point start saying that she wants to speak to Lucas...)

In this case, Lucas isn't the one being careful until about mid-way series 9 when he starts to do bad things and knows he can get caught for them. He manages to cover his tracks in terms of mysterious phone calls and loitering to an extent, which is really all he could see himself needing to o until John became more apparent.

(I hope this makes sense and it's not just waffle. I'm trying to work at the same time here. )

Hmmm... I have to say, I do think Ruth insisting she wanted to speak to Lucas was intended by the writer of the episode to expose the extent to which she was out of her depth and in unfamiliar psychological territory. (Yes, I am mixing my metaphors. It's late. What are you going to do about it?). I'm not sure it was intended to validate the idea of a discrete value of Lucas still available for instant recall.

The idea of John remaining determinedly hidden suggests a level of conscious effort in both the hiding and the remaining hidden. I think also it would require a kind of dialogue of concession with Lucas in which Lucas agreed not to go looking. Both these elements are fraught with the threat of discovery and exposure. What did created-Lucas, with his moral drive and stripped-down virtue, have to gain from such an agreement? It seems unlikely created-Lucas, imbued with the qualities devised for him by forgotten-John, would have committed himself to any such agreement in the first place. How forgotten, anyway, is someone who is able to surface, apparently on a daily basis, to make the deal described to Harry in 9.7? The Gollum logic bothers me.

I thought when Lucas said that to Ruth, he was speaking more about the most recent events, i.e. him stealing the Albany file, and how he'd tried to cover his tracks by framing that other bloke.

That's an interesting point Silktie, I like others had thought that comment referred to earlier events (of hiding John), but it does indeed make far more sense in reference to more current events. Although saying he used the underground when it was in fact shut (Ruth's first discovery) was still very careless.

BravoNine said: 'I think what WhiteSwan means is that when Lucas said he had been "so careful", he really wasn't that careful if Beth found the real Lucas in seconds and Alec found out where John went to school.

Seems like a silly job of erasing evidence..... ' end quote.

If Lucas really didn't remember being John,( can't believe I'm typing this!) than maybe that could explain Beth finding the gym-picture of the 'real' Lucas so fast. If Lucas didn't know he was someone else than there would be no reason for him to think about the fact he would have to cover up his tracks and hiding the existence of a 'real' Lucas North, in this case: destroying the gym-membership-evidence.

But as I'm typing this another question comes to my mind: If he didn't know who he really was untill he saw Vaughn/ opened that damned briefcase, why haven't we seen the reason for this total lack of memory? I still find it utterly unlogical and unbelievable that one would be able to completely 'forget' who they really are without 'help', by erasing their memory f.i.. (if it was erased than surely it wouldn't come back simply by looking at a briefcase, would it?), and if it wasn't erased surely Lucas would have caved in wilst undergoing torture in Russia, so there had to be some sort of reference to the fact that the Russians (Darshavin) knew who he was. If I remeber correctly we've never got a hint of that being the case either.

And who's past was he talking about then to that boy in 7.6? It had to be Lucas' past, because he told the boy he didn't want to lie to him so he couldn't tell much (being a secret agent), but if it was Lucas' past, there was no reason for John to be secretive about that, since Lucas didn't exist anymore and it didn't matter how much the boy knew. On the other hand, if it was Johns past he was talking about, how could John remember that if we are ment to believe he didn't know anything anymore about being John?

I'm sorry if this doesn't come across as coherent, just typing my incoherent thoughts about an incoherent plotline!!!
If anyone can shed a light on this, please do!
I also want to appologise if this belongs on another thread!

Well, if we accept the theory that Lucas is suffering from split-personality disorder, then the plot somewhat makes sense.

Lucas was the dominant persona, whilst the traumatised John was buried deep within L/J's psych. Whilst Lucas was the dominant persona, he had no recollection of ever encountering any other version of himself. I'm not quite sure how multiple/split-personality disorders work, but someone once told me "it's like a revolver", with each different personality surfacing just as a revolver shoots out different bullets. If we accept this theory to be correct, then it is possible that the dominant Lucas persona simply had no idea of the John persona (as it was so deeply buried within him), that the Lucas persona constructed an entire recollection of a past life (the brain can apparently do tremendous things under trauma), and that all it took for the John persona to resurface and become dominant was the right trigger (...Maya? Or Vaughn. The triggers were poor ones, but if we accept them as triggers it makes a bit more sense).

We then see John in 9.8 constantly struggling with Lucas, as Lucas obviously wants to help Harry understand, whereas John is intent on destruction (of himself and others). If we view 9.8 as L/J's internal battle of different persona's, then I think it almost makes sense?

Either that or there really is no plausible explanation whatsoever for this storyline. You be the judge

---

On a different note, I would love to ask RA what his interpretation of this storyline is, and how he went about portraying Lucas' downfall. Because I think he may be the only man on the planet who will ever understand why Lucas acted the way he did in this series!

(30-11-2010 05:36 AM)Silktie Wrote:  I thought when Lucas said that to Ruth, he was speaking more about the most recent events, i.e. him stealing the Albany file, and how he'd tried to cover his tracks by framing that other bloke.

Well if you’re going to be all literal about it... Maybe I need to tone down the critical functions a bit more when I watch television. I did manage to work my way up to a genuine appreciation of a Cinderella metaphor in Eastenders the other day. Oh! I need a hobby

(30-11-2010 11:00 AM)HellsBells Wrote:  That's an interesting point Silktie, I like others had thought that comment referred to earlier events (of hiding John), but it does indeed make far more sense in reference to more current events. Although saying he used the underground when it was in fact shut (Ruth's first discovery) was still very careless.

The underground thing is surely the least of it. ‘John’s’ understanding of “so careful” seems to extend only as far as infant school lying (the underground error); obtaining restricted access by face-to-face deception (although, the young man from Section C does seem to have been remarkably blasé about spending time in jail, since he has evidently made no effort to describe the person who was standing right in front of him around the time of the crime he is accused of committing), and cleaning his fingerprints from the touch screen BUT NOT THE KEYBOARD of the access point he had his mitts all over. Are we to assume he was lifted in Moscow because he was just too stupid to lie?!

(30-11-2010 01:04 PM)Belle Wrote:  If Lucas really didn't remember being John,( can't believe I'm typing this!) than maybe that could explain Beth finding the gym-picture of the 'real' Lucas so fast. If Lucas didn't know he was someone else than there would be no reason for him to think about the fact he would have to cover up his tracks and hiding the existence of a 'real' Lucas North, in this case: destroying the gym-membership-evidence.

Again with the disbelieving typing... Given that the presence of Lucas in the Dakar file seems to be based on something as ephemeral as gym membership, should ‘John’ not have also been in the file simply by dint of his employment in the casino? If ‘John’ was in Dakar, ‘John’ should have been in the file.

(30-11-2010 02:55 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Well, if we accept the theory that Lucas is suffering from split-personality disorder, then the plot somewhat makes sense...

Clearly, this is the plot scenario the writing/production team believes itself to have created. I can’t help thinking, though, (because I am a paid researcher, and that’s just how my brain works) that I’d like to have seen a bit more effort put in to a cold presentation of dissociative identity disorder in the middle of a narrative so ill-equipped to support this development. Dissociative identity disorder is a fundamentally misunderstood, and extremely contentious, condition. There is disagreement in the technical psychiatric profession as to whether the concept is even capable of supporting diagnosis or description. It bothers me that a clever and internally coherent spy narrative – for all its ludicrous shorthand – should defer to a badly drawn medical narrative in an effort to answer character questions which had never been asked, and did not require answers.

I will continue to be bitter about this at least until I find some other TV show to disappoint me

(30-11-2010 11:13 PM)binkie Wrote:  

(30-11-2010 02:55 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Well, if we accept the theory that Lucas is suffering from split-personality disorder, then the plot somewhat makes sense...

Clearly, this is the plot scenario the writing/production team believes itself to have created. I can’t help thinking, though, (because I am a paid researcher, and that’s just how my brain works) that I’d like to have seen a bit more effort put in to a cold presentation of dissociative identity disorder in the middle of a narrative so ill-equipped to support this development. Dissociative identity disorder is a fundamentally misunderstood, and extremely contentious, condition. There is disagreement in the technical psychiatric profession as to whether the concept is even capable of supporting diagnosis or description. It bothers me that a clever and internally coherent spy narrative – for all its ludicrous shorthand – should defer to a badly drawn medical narrative in an effort to answer character questions which had never been asked, and did not require answers.

I will continue to be bitter about this at least until I find some other TV show to disappoint me

Oh yes, indeed. I despise the way they did it, and I think the entire plot was totally unnecessary when there were so many other more interesting questions which could have been addressed. But based on what the writers have presented us with, however appallingly they may have done it... that's the only conclusion I can draw from it all!

The fact that Lucas apparently has a shockingly bad memory all of a sudden is ridiculous, especially after his apparently photographic memory was emphasised so clearly in S7. I don't honestly believe that there is any way of explaining some of these plot-holes though. I keep trying to think of ways in which some things that happened could make sense, but unless you're willing to discount anything you learnt about Lucas' character in S7&8... it just won't work. We could sit and draw up the apparent multiple mental afflictions Lucas appeared to be suffering from at the end of S9 for hours, and still not come any closer to understanding why he would act in that way. I'm almost starting to believe that the writers just wanted the audience to be left feeling utterly confused and abandoned. Only time will tell (in the form of S10) if they had any ulterior motives for this shocking plot-line, or if it really was just a case of appallingly bad writing.

I think the only thing that could potentially explain why Lucas wasn't found out sooner is that he was trusted... but of course, when he came back from Russia, he should have had all his files checked over, surely? The only explanations are either that MI5 is seriously lacking in competent security, or that the writers thought we wouldn't notice Which would seem an absurdly ignorant assumption to make when writing a drama of Spooks calibre.

I'm just watching and waiting for S10. Hopefully some questions will be answered then, but frustratingly I fear nothing will be explained. Perhaps the S9 boxset might have some extras which may shed some light on the plot? It's a long-shot, but you never know!