[spoilers] Hermione Norris/Ros

[binkie]

Oh! guy lafleur, I knew there was a fair chance I'd just make you cross by commenting on that one part of a sentence

Of course, I'm not trying to suggest I can divine your motives and personality from a short string of words - and I hope I didn't write anything that implied that's what I was doing. I wasn't trying to characterise you as some kind of rampantly unthinking misogynist. I was just trying to draw attention to the extent to which certain words and expressions have taken on a valuative weight which, although not necessarily the intention of the user in any individual case, are nevertheless communicated by cultural transfer.

I wasn't having a go at you so much as the conclusion of the transfer which imputes irrelevance to the judgment of a woman when commenting on the value of a man outside the context of sexual selection. The same is equally true of a man commenting on the qualities of a woman outside base physical characteristics. I'm sure you have encountered this.

So, there we are: I don't know you (obviously). I'm certainly not "assuming what [you] felt". I'm identifying you as a victim of the vagaries of cultural transfer

Incidentally, I also thought Ros was a better, more decisive, leader than Lucas. There are plenty of explanations for why this might be. It could even come down to a competition as to which one of them was better able to carry off the tricky all-in-black-but-not-listening-to-Cradle-of-Filth look.

[guy lafleur]

ok binkie ,sorry if i took it personally.I liked Lucas ok until the fiasco at the end but did not feel he should have been the team leader, just as I wonder who will be for season 10.I liked the Alec character ok but maybe not for the leader ,we will see.Cheers

[binkie]

Don't even get me started about the "fiasco at the end"

Glad you are not irredeemably upset with me. Ros would roll her eyes at this point, at the very least

[BravoNine]

Ros was indeed a far better leader than Lucas, I can admit to that even with my adoration for the Lucas character. While he is indeed "hot", his superficial appearance is not how we judge his leadership abilities. Hot does not equate being a good leader. And anyways, a person's hotness is in the eyes of the beholder.

Ros was more clear-minded, more decisive, and far less emotional in many ways that Lucas was not. It doesn't mean that Lucas wasn't a good agent or that he wasn't competent, but with the many turmoils inside Lucas's head and his own tendency to run off rogue, he was far more suited to being a second in command, to have someone there to guide his talents and skills and point him in the right direction. Ros was able to do that, she became the guiding compass for Lucas, we all saw how well he flourished under her command. Ros's calm and stern commanding ways made her the perfect leader. When things went wrong, she was the steady foundation for the team to clutch onto. They look at Ros and they see this calmness, they see this person that they can completely trust to get them through the disaster. Ros has this ability to make her team feel safe, and that calm and steadiness makes her the most efficient leader.

Lucas was always the more unstable one. Now I cannot attest to what Lucas had been like before his imprisonment in Moscow, but the Lucas that came back from Moscow was clearly not the one that Harry or Malcolm had remembered. What Lucas had gone through in Moscow effects who he is now, and he is unstable, he is the wild card, and as steady of an agent he tries to be, there is no doubt that things do trigger feelings inside him. His emotions have a chance to get the best of him and cloud his judgment. But we have seen that under the right direction, Lucas can also be the most efficient and competent agent there is. We saw that when the team was escaping the Russian attack squad in London, Lucas led the way then for Ros and Connie, he was quick thinking, adaptive, and courageous. And we do see even in Series 9, that Lucas can be an efficient leader if given the right chance and circumstance, he did well during the first couple of episodes before his own mind went south.

I still firmly hold to my belief that if Ros had been alive in Series 9, she would have stopped Lucas before things went berserk the way it did. She would have noticed, Ros always had this ability to read Lucas, to notice the little things. She would have seen something was off and have taken care of the issue, or at least, the truth would have came out a lot faster than it did. Lucas lost the compass after Ros died, there's no one to point him in the right direction the way Ros was able to do, no wonder his whole life just fell apart. No one noticed or bothered to do anything.....Ros would not have allowed this to happen....

Gosh I miss Ros! She would have saved us from the mess of Series 9!!!! Lucas would have listened to her....

[DogSoSmall]

Ros would have noticed - what, like Ruth you mean? Fat lot of good that did!

[BravoNine]

(07-03-2011 07:18 PM)DogSoSmall Wrote:  Ros would have noticed - what, like Ruth you mean? Fat lot of good that did!

Ruth never really got to the bottom of it, and when she noticed, it had started and was too late, this is not me saying Ruth isn't a good agent, but her connections with Lucas and Ros's connections with Lucas are rather different.

I just think that Ros would have a better chance of heading off Lucas's crazy antics, she reads Lucas better and somehow I doubt Lucas would have been able to kidnap or shut down Ros as easily as he was able to take Ruth out of the equation to use her against Harry.

Ruth did notice and that was great, but where did it really get her in the end when she really did nothing that was ultimately useful. By the time she said what she did, things were already happening beyond their control.

It's just in my opinion that Ros would have handled things in a different way that would have made sure Lucas didn't run off all crazy and insane, somehow Ros seems to have this calming effect on Lucas.

And if worse, at least Ros would just smacked him for being an idiot or shot him. At least this Lucas/John-loves-Maya disaster would have been averted.

Yes I seem to have a lot of faith in Ros I notice, but seeing as how she was probably the first person to know about Lucas's relationship with Sarah, I would bet that she would have kept an eye on Maya as well.

[Byatil]

Not to appear to be "mini-modding", but I believe this is supposed to be a thread about the discussion of Ros, not Lucas?

I think Ros had a hell of a lot thrown at her over series 7 and 8. Adam, Jo, Connie and Ben's deaths, Malcolm's departure, the return of Ruth; on top of having to sleep with sleazy men and remain a calm, strong and efficient leader! She was a pretty phenomenal character to be able to cope under all that pressure. I loved one of her final lines; "I'm not afraid of dying, I'm just sad that I won't be around to see how it ends" or something to that effect. She really was an enigma right to the end.

[BravoNine]

(07-03-2011 07:28 PM)Byatil Wrote:  Not to appear to be "mini-modding", but I believe this is supposed to be a thread about the discussion of Ros, not Lucas?

Well, we were comparing Ros and Lucas's leadership abilities, and Ros and Lucas's relationship, so I do think it is relevant as it does pertain to Ros and her character.

[guy lafleur]

and as a footnote, of all the team leaders she was the only one to still have all her marbles at the end hehe but I did miss something, I will have to rewatch because I'm not sure that that HS was cleared of being the leak or nightingale member,I assumed by Ros trying to save him he was cleared.

[JHyde]

To be honest I just think the storyline about Lucas would not have made sense had Ros still been part of the team. I mean, it didn't make much sense anyway, but Ros certainly would have taken the bull by the horns early on.

It's also because Lucas' role in the group changed a lot once Ros left.